Is this Thomas Jefferson quote real?

[Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division]

“We took the liberty to make some inquiries concerning the Grounds of their pretensions to make war upon a Nation who had done them no Injury, and observed that we considered all mankind as our Friends who had done us no wrong, nor had given us any provocation. The Ambassador answered us that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise.”

http://www.dojgov.net/Liberty_Watch.htm

Link plays music

[BobT]

I would think it would be fairly difficult for the DOJ to come up with an extended length quotation from Jefferson and have it be fabricated.

There is a lot of documentation of his life and Jefferson and Adams corresponded frequently at that time.

[Boyo_Jim]

Just to be clear, that is NOT a government website, though the name implies it. That in itself makes me suspicious.

I cannot find that passage anywhere else, which also makes me suspicious of it. But I can’t say authoritatively either way.

[Reeder]

Not that I trust them…but the Freepers think it is…

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1165118/posts

[Boyo_Jim]

@Reeder

Not that I trust them…but the Freepers think it is…

Militant Islam & America: Full Circle [***Terrorism in 1786 ?*** Appeasement never works !]

That is the exact same article as the OP site, reprinted elsewhere.

[samclem]

That website starts out its glurge with a known false glurge.

See snopes

Now, having said that, it doesn’t prove anything one way or the other. Just shows how poorly written and researched most websites are, especially when they have an ax to grind.

If they’re just passing along some crap that they heard/read, then why should you give credence to anything else on their website?

[akennett]

A cursory glance through my copy of the writings of Jefferson indicate no letters exchanged around the date given in the articles linked in this thread. I will check out those letters a few months around that date and through his other official writings and let you know what I find.

[akennett]

Okay, there is some history to back up some of the claims made regarding the quote. In the 1780s, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and a third man (I don’t recall who) were sent to England, France, and the Netherlands respectively to, among other things, secure commercial treaties.

On March 12, 1786, Jefferson wrote a letter to John Jay from London stating that he was in the English capital because a minister from Tripoli was there with the power to negotiate treaties in general. Adams had intimated to Jefferson that ministers from Tunisia and Portugal might also be present. The hope was that they could negotiate with him on behalf of the American government to end the war on shipping by the Barbary Pirates.

Neither the minister from Portugal nor Tunisia arrived, but Jefferson said that he and Adams planned to make a report to congress about the information they obtained from the minister from Tripoli.

A letter, also to Jay, dated the 23 of April seems to indicate that the minister from Portugal arrived and that the three (or four?) had met. This letter echoes the rather pessimistic tone of the quote in question, but is not even a close match in content or wording. The next letter, dated May 3, 1786 is marked as being sent from Paris.

A search (thank Og for the “find” function in Word) of the other volumes in which the quote might appear was fruitless. I searched in those volumes containing his official papers, autobiography, etc. for the words “musselman” and “paradise” to try to find the quote with no success.

This is a 1906 edition of Jefferson’s writings and may have been eclipsed in more recent years with the uncovering of new documents. Also, the words may appear in an official correspondence that did not make it into the canon of Jefferson’s writings (it may appear under Adams’ name or merely be filed in some government archives unclaimed, as it were).

In conclusion, I cannot offer you a categorical “no,” but there is little evidence (and that only circumstancial) for the quote’s validity.

[SandyHook]

I just emailed Clay Jenkinson about this. He is a humanities scholar and did an excellant Thomas Jefferson impersonation on for several years. He is very well read about Jefferson and Jefferson’s writings. Perhaps he can shed some light.

[bibliophage]

An image of the letter from Adams and Jefferson to John Jay can be found in Thomas Jefferson Papers Series 1. General Correspondence. 1651-1827, pp. 430-432. I can’t link directly to it, but you can go to http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/mtjhtml/mtjser1.html and then click on “From January 2, 1786” and then go to page 430. There is apparently no text version available, only images of the three pages of the handwritten letter, which I have tried to transcribe. Several words are illegible. Maybe somebody else can fill in the blanks.

_____ March 28th 1786

Sir,

Soon after the arrival of Mr. J. [Jefferson] in London, we had a conference with the ambassador of Tripoli at his house.

The account of all this information we can obtain from him was that a perpetual peace was in all _____ the most advisable, because a temporary treaty would leave room for _____ing _____s upon every _____ of it, and a stipulation for annual payments would be liable to failures of performance which would _____ the _____, defeat the negotiations & continually augment[?] the claims of his nations & the difference of expense would by no means be adequate to the inconvenience, since 12,500 Guineas to his constituents with 20 percent upon that _____ for himself, must be paid if the treaty was made for only one year.

That 30,000 Guineas for his employers and 3,000 for himself were the lowest terms upon which a perpetual peace could be made & that this must be paid in cash at the delivery of the treaty signed by his soverign–that no kind of merchandise could be accepted.

That Tunis would treat upon the same terms ___ he could not answer for Algiers or for Morocco. **We took the liberty to make some inquiries concerning the Grounds[?] of their _____ to make war upon nations[?] who had done them no injury & observed _____ considered all mankind as our friends who had done us no wrong, nor had given us any provocation.–

The ambassador answered as that it was founded[?] on the laws of their prophet[?] that it was written in their Koran that all nations who _____ not acknowledge[?] their authority were sinners that it was _____ _____ duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found & to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners[?] and that every Musselman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to paradise.–**

That it was a law that the first who boarded an enemy’s vessel should have one slave more than his share[?] with the rest, which operated as an incentive to the most desperate valour and enterprise, that it was the practise of their corsairs to bear down upon a ship for each sailor[?] to take a dagger, in each hand, and another in his mouth, and leap on board, which so terrified their enemies that very few ever[?] stood[?] against them–that he verily believed the Devil assisted his countrymen, for they were almost always successful–We took time to consider and promised an answer, but we can give him no other than that the demands exceeded our expectations and that of Congress so much that we can proceed no further without _____ instructions.

There is but one possible way that we know of to procure the money, if Congress should authorize us to go to the necessary expense, and that is to borrow it in Holland–we are not certain it can be had there–but if Congress should order us to make the best terms we can with Tunis, Tripoli, Algiers & Morocco, and to procure this money, wherever we can find it, when terms like those of the last loan in Holland, our best endeavours shall be used to remove this formidable obstacle out of the way, of the prosperity of the United States–

Inclosed is a copy of a letter from P.R. Randall _____ _____ Barcelona, the last from Mr. Barclay was _____ Bayonne, – It is hoped we shall soon have news from Algiers & Morocco, & we wish it may not be more disagreeable than this from Tunis & Tripoli–

We are &c.
J.A.
T.J.

[To] His Excellency John Jay

[Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division]

Wow. Transcribing that letter is above and beyond. Thank you very much.

[Squink]

@bibliophage

Maybe somebody else can fill in the blanks.

Dick Cheney would probably do a good job on this:

a temporary treaty would leave room for _____ing _____s upon every _____ of it