Is this true (about alcoholics)?

In My Humble Opinion
21

No question, AA helps every single person it helps.

Too bad about the uncounted millions it doesn’t - the ones who can’t cope with its pseudoreligious tenets or public confession or other aspects. Too bad AA smothers nearly all alternatives to the point where many people are not even aware there are alternatives; they hit bottom, try AA, can’t make it work… and continue their ethanol-fueled destruction because “they tried the only option and failed.”

It is pseudoscientific nonsense that “works” the same way astrology or Scientology “works” - for some number of people, its mythology gives them something to hang onto and learn to focus. Most addiction specialists and behavorial researchers know a dozen better, more solidly-grounded approaches that don’t have AA’s flaws… but AA is the 500 pound dog in the manger, blocking any real possibility of a better system taking root while doing far less good than is generally supposed.

Works for those it works for, though. Just like any woo.

22

I am NOT slamming AA - it has helped a lot of people - but being “powerless” over the desire to drink alcohol on the 14th of every month sound like a very odd compulsion rather than alcoholism.

Yes, a lot of people insist that any habit is an addiction and that anyone who disagrees with them is “in denial”. Yes, a lot of people addicted to some substance are in denial.

Your friend, I believe most would agree, is wrong; but please do not argue - if AA is working, let it be.

23

AA has the same success rate as people quitting drinking on their own. So, for every person it helps, there is someone it harms. That needs to be borne in mind any time it’s suggested for people.

I’ve been sober for almost 2 years. I can categorically say that joining a cult would not have made it easier…

24

Lots of alkies over here. I know someone I consider to be a true alcoholic, a Canadian who is now expecting his first child with his Thai girlfriend, and if he doesn’t clean up soon, I’d say he he stands a fair chance of dying before his kid’s birth like his own father did of a drug overdose.

And regarding this person, I have a question that is somewhat related to the OP’s question. This guy engages in a behavior that I’m not sure I’ve seen in any of the other alcoholics I’ve know. And it’s that without fail, we get into the exact same discussion at some point when he gets drunk. I’d rather not get into too much detail, but it regards a mutual acquaintance. My friend will start listing certain “facts” about said person, and every single time I have to disabuse him of his notions. “No, that is not true, because etc, etc, etc,” every single time like clockwork. It’s like Groundhog Day. How common is that sort of thing among alcoholics? He’s only in his 30s, so I don’t think it’s Alzheimer’s.

25

In my case it’s probably true, based on how true “once a smoker, always a smoker” seems to be. Quit smoking in 1985 and would still dearly love one after dinner, but I know that I can’t because then I’d have another one and soon be back to a pack and a half a day.

Had a laugh one meeting when I told of being at my nephew’s wedding and, during the toast, taking a sip of the champagne that had been poured a couple hours earlier and left at our place settings. I wanted to see just how warm, flat, and nasty it was, but the other AAs treated me like I had played Russian Roulette with five chambers loaded. Maybe some people are like that; I’m not going to judge them.

Well, yeah, but it helps some people, even if it does so inadvertently.

26

exactly this. AA works for some by absolving them of any responsibility for their actions (teaching them they are “powerless”) and having them transfer their substance dependency to dependency on the AA lifestyle. any attempt to discuss alternatives to the 12 steps/traditions is immediately shot down. you’re told that it is absolutely impossible to stay sober without the help of AA (patently false). meetings consist of everyone sharing their war stories, which all follow the same formula (some kind of trauma, got high/drunk, hit rock bottom, found AA, better now). the 12 steps and traditions are recited at the opening of each meeting, until every word is burned into your brain and you can mouth the words along with them. it’s a fucking cult.

27

“Harms” is a long way from “doesn’t help,” and those studies are all flawed by not taking a long enough view. It appears that addicts of all sorts typically relapse at least once before the treatment–any treatment–“takes.” Very few people can stay on a diet for long, and, as there is a Twain quote for any occasion, he said, “Giving up smoking is the easiest thing in the world. I know because I’ve done it thousands of times.” The studies, just like AA, count a relapse as a failure*, as they do simply dropping out of the study or not going to meetings. I’ve been sober for 20 months, but since I stopped attending meetings regularly before my first anniversary (the studies I’ve seen did not last longer than a year) I would be written off.

    • “Change your attitude or change your sobriety date.” I think I joined because I love aphorisms and AA has hundreds of them.
28

Weeeeell, that stretches “voluntary” to the breaking point, but it is NOT the fault of AA. It is the fault of a justice system that sees AA as somewhere they can dump these people that doesn’t cost the system anything. And it appeals to judges with a Puritanical bent. The drunk gets sober? Shows the power of God and Justice working together. He’s back on the street drunk? He lacks strength and faith so back to the pokey for that loser. And so we get:

AA hasn’t done the smothering. Judges and doctors who lack imagination and knowledge and keep hitting every sort of fastener with the same hammer did. Okay, AA did in part because of its age and having once been the only game in town. Nothing succeeds like success and it just keeps going.

Not that all of the alternatives are much better. Most of the ones I’ve looked at are chock full of woo, too. And the other addictions with 12 steps that are carbon copies of the original are just a bit embarrassing.

29

If there are people getting sober though AA who wouldn’t otherwise, then there are people who would be sober except for AA, that’s what those statistics mean. That’s why I can confidently say it does as much harm as good, at least by the standards it uses.

Now, if as seems likely there’s a particular personality type that’s helped by AA, and those people were directed there, and others were directed away from it to more useful treatment - in my case, treating the underlying mental health issues I’d been self-medicating with alcohol* - I wouldn’t have the problems I do with it, which is that it proclaims itself the One True Solution to alcoholism.

I have absolutely no doubt it works for some people, those who want to surrender to a superior being, and those who want or need the support of a group of non-drinkers to help them. Neither fits me at all - indeed, the support of my friends, pretty much all of whom drink, many to excess, has been sufficient. It’s this last part that most makes me think of it as a cult, that it teaches that you cannot maintain your current relationships and quit drinking. While that may be true for some people, it’s not true for all.

Anyway, I’m glad you’ve stayed sober, and found a way that works for you.

*It’s possible that, because of this, I was not, or am not, an alcoholic, as alcohol wasn’t the problem, the underlying issues were. If so, that’s certainly the case for many, many problem drinkers, and it’s unlikely that the AA model will particularly help those. That said, I don’t intend to drink again in the future, but neither will it necessarily be a failure if I do. People and circumstances change.

30

It is amazing the amount of misinformation, wrong headed statements & general obvious lack of any real knowledge of AA that it boggles the mind.

Now I am not going to fight or debate about it because from the last 100 threads about alcoholism and / or AA, not one mind will get changed and no one will learn any truth or facts.

No one person, no one group, no one state, no one country speaks for AA.

No two groups are exactly the same.

Blah, blah, blah …

I find that those here who, when presented with a bad, obviously near death person having a problem with addiction who has tried every option there is, even all the ones the these people recommend, will then tell them to just go die because AA or NA or CA will not work, no 12 step program will.

If that poor desperate person is a SO or ones own child, they will watch that person die because they know that the MILLIONS of people who live great lives, happy, joyous & free ( as what recovering people say much of the time ) are just deluded. So they will just have to die because they KNOW that 12 step programs can not work.

When just a couple of hours of information gathering and reading will disprove the silly statements they are making. No, they think, that a dead 18 year old child is the answer.

Do Not EVER Try AA…

Oh, I am a recovering alcoholic, clean, happy & sober for 23+ years. Not one relapse, not one drop, not one mouthwash that contains any alcohol, never abused any drug, not the death by murder of my 18 year old daughter.

And I am not the exception. I know many who have done the same & more, even though they have suffered much worse than I.

This thread is in no way fighting ignorance.

31

No-one’s saying don’t try AA. You are being exactly as defensive as many people who’ve used it often are, and just support my claims. If it worked for you, good. Just don’t pretend that it works for more people than not.

32

Well, it certainly is silly to assert that AA is somehow tying the hands of science and preventing it from making advances in treating alcoholism, or that it is this big bully that keeps people from trying other things that could work better, as though it were the mob. That kind of paranoia seems more like a personal grudge than a fight against ignorance.

33

I did not say that… Please quote where I did. :rolleyes:

34

I did not say that you said that. Please quote where I did.

35

Where did I pretend that or say that? Please quote it. :stuck_out_tongue:

By saying that you are making incorrect statements is being defensive?

This is IMHO so I can’t ask for a cite so there is no way to prove that anything either of us is saying. Who ever yells the loudest or posts the fastest has the most correct information?

What method for long term sobriety has a better track record than the 12 step programs? Not in opinion, but in fact.

36

I’m glad that your higher power has delivered you from this.

But one has to ask, something as simple as mouthwash containing alcohol will bounce you from the cult you follow? Or at least have your time reset 0 days sober? OH NO!

Dude, the cult you’ve devoted over half your life to is fucking ignorant as the belief that some god will heal your cancer.

Can’t you take a step back and realize that it isn’t a far leap from your beliefs to those crazy whackos who refuse chemo and die?

37

It seems to me that I am not hearing most of the negative posters correctly and obviously they are not hearing me.

I’m not going to do a talk about AA as no one here seems to be in need of help nor have they asked for that.

You all have a great rest of the evening. :smiley:

38

Following the cult’s traditions. Good job.

39

Simply deciding not to drink again is, on average, just as successful as AA. Also drugs like Antabuse, and techniques like CBT or hypnotherapy. There are many ways to stop drinking, although not all of them have the goal of never even touching alcohol again, even mouthwash :rolleyes:

If I were to have one drink today, I would still be sober. I’m not going to, mainly because there’s at least a possibility, maybe a strong one, that it would lead to many more, and also because it’s kinda good to have an area of my life I’m actually in control of.

I don’t plan to give up that control to some non-existent “higher power”, and I won’t give my choice of what I consider adequately sober to a group who consider mouthwash to be a sin…

It works for you. That’s great, I sincerely mean that. But what I don’t get is why AA members, including yourself, are so invested in the idea that it must be the best way, and that anyone who doesn’t reach your standards of sobriety, and desire for it, are failures. Well, I do get it, if it’s considered a cult, but that’s another thing you seem to be in denial about.

40

Just how many people in recovery have you seen that do that silly of a thing?
{QUOTE]

OK, OK, one more.

MrDurden, every one of your statements is inaccurate, wrong & I did not say any of those things.

Night night. :smiley: