Responding directly to *your own defense *of God’s perogatives, as seen below:
That is not a response at all, Troppus. I’m saying that mundane matters such as a football game need not be beyond God’s notice. This is not the same as saying that God is obligated to answer every prayer or to prevent every instance of suffering – even horrible, intense suffering.
Christians recognize that God can choose to answer prayers, both big and small. He may confer great blessings, or he may sometimes choose to allow great suffering to exist. None of this contradicts the notion that a football game might indeed be the sort of thing that he cares about, even if it is for reasons to which we are not privy.
Jesus’ first miracles was to turn water into wine at a wedding so that the hosts wouldn’t be embarrassed. Seems about on par with worrying about a football game.
Look, Christianity is full of what we would call contradictions. But religion isn’t logical. It’s about faith. You don’t have to believe in it. I don’t. But most Americans do. If it bothers you, then be prepared for life of bother. Or you can let it go. Your choice.
I’m not butthurt about it (not saying you’re saying I am). It’s just that it’s become somewhat of a fad now. And like all fads, it makes me roll my eyes.
Sorry. I only meant that first sentence to be in response to your post. I should have started a new paragraph with the butthurt part.
Oh, and if it’s a fad, it’s not Tebow’s fault. He just does what he does, and if other people copy him, they’re just trying to bask in a bit of his glow.
No. Next question.
I addressed your comment directly, and I’ll be happy to offer the same counter to your argument no matter how you rephrase it. Your defense of God’s potential for attending to the mundane rather than the obscene suffering in the world is laughable, and the “it is not for us to know” defense predictable and tired.
Tebow’s grandstanding is unnecessary either by NFL or Christian standards, and the kid could certainly pray silently, discretely, and allow the entire team and supporting staff to enjoy the attention they deserve for their respective contributions. Tebow has a church, a charity or two, the full attention of the press and adoring fans, and all manner of platforms appropriate for causes and witnessing. The field during an NFL game is not such an appropriate platform, and Tebow’s attention whoring stunts would be just as unsportsmanlike if he made such a display of any other cause unrelated to the game. In addition to the unsportsmanlike conduct (which would be soundly condemned for any religion not compatible with Christianity), Tebow is a jerk for begging God’s attention for such a mundane effort. Surely there are worthier causes.
That book is so full of contradictions that a verse can be found to support or condemn just about any act that can be dreamed up. And when the Bible fails to provide support, some weirdo just spins a translation to include whatever new idea he espouses. Recent revisions shamelessly add new material, so who’s to say that the Book of Tebow isn’t buried somewhere in Wayne County?
Only Christians care enough to debate Tebow’s adherence to Biblical tenet; the state of Tebow’s relationship to the god of his understanding is of little consequence to most non-believers. If his god is bothered by Tebow’s stunts, I reckon He can divinely intervene via Buffalo. Butthurt? Nah. I’m annoyed by his grandstanding when numerous other platforms for witnessing exist, and annoyed that the accomplishments of other Broncos are eclipsed by his showboating.
I am not seeing the contradiction, especially since it is not conspicuous and rather presumed to exist by yourself.
The relevant verses read as follows. "Disciples and the World
13"You are the salt of the earth ; but if the salt has become tasteless, how * can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.14"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot * be hidden ;15nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.16"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven."
1"Beware of* practicing your righteousness before men to be noticedby them**; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.2"So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.3"But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,4so that your giving will be in secret ; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.5"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites ; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.6"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.7*
Now, Jesus is discussing two types of people or individuals. In the preceding paragraph of verses, Jesus is discussing those good works done in public and performed to glorify God in heaven. This type of person does not perform the good works to bring glory to themselves amongst men, essentially to boast and demonstrate to men the good works they are performing. They do not publicly announce the righteous act they are about to perform or have performed, or engage in the righteous act in public for the purpose of being “honored by men.”
What is lacking from the preceding verses but present in the subsequent paragraph of verses is announcement to the public of a good deed to be performed and then subsequently performing it. A defining characteristic of the verses in the latter paragraph is the element of the righteous act to be seen by men, by publicly announcing it or doing the act in public, for the express purpose of being “honored by men.”
The contradiction is myth.
We also have a very outspoken Christian here in Texas, only it’s in baseball rather than football, in left fielder Josh Hamilton of the Texas Rangers. But unlike Tebow, he doesn’t genuflect after everything he does during a game.
Now, he will give the glory to God at the beginning of interviews if it’s pertinent to the discussion and he’s not the least bit shy talking about his faith in general, but overall, he seems to feel that his constant communion with his creator should be private and not detract from their relationship.
So, I really don’t understand why Tebow wouldn’t feel something similar. Obviously, you can become well known for your beliefs like those that have been previously mentioned (Warner, Polamalu, etc.), if you’d like to share the word, without you being the prime focus instead of whichever higher power.
I don’t know if that makes him a hypocrite or not, but I do know that the message sinks in with me much more from those who simply live the walk than shout the talk. However, I am thrilled to hear that he is supposedly a really good young man. Hopefully, he’ll keep that up.
Matthew 5:15 and 16 contradicts the OP’s closet prayer snippet. Are you complaining that I offered Matt 5:16 as a ringing endorsement for public prayer?
No, you did not. I already explained why your “response” was nothing of the sort. You’er complaining that God allows pain and suffering in the world. Now, you and I obviously disagree on whether God might have sufficient reasons for allowing such tragedies, and I doubt that we’ll agree on that matter. Either way though, it’s irrelevant to the question of whether God should care about something as mundane as a football game, which is the matter under discussion.
“But he doesn’t care! He doesn’t! He doesn’t!” you insist. Fine. We could debate that point all day long, but it’s irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Like the objections of many critics, your complaint amounts to shooting as much buckshot in this general direction as possible, regardless of whether it’s actually aimed at the target or not.
So it’s cool for you to posit God’s interest in worldy affairs, but my (non-believing) contribution to the same discussion is unwelcome? That’s cool, I’m certainly no expert in His Mysterious Ways. But when you offer Matthew 10:29 as justification for Tebow’s grandstanding, I reserve the right to point out that divine bias towards a football game is a hilarious departure from His omnipotent resume.
I’ve always interpreted Matthew 6:5-6 as referring to people deliberately making a big show out of praying in order to impress others. In other words, they’re not really praying so much as acting like, “look at me, look at how pious I am!”, and then acting like a jackass the rest of the time. And I don’t get that impression from Tebow.
It doesn’t mean you can’t ever pray in public. Otherwise you’d never be able to hold Masses or anything like that.
I don’t think he’s praying to win, as in, “God, make our team win and crush the other guy.” More like, “Give us the strength we need in order to perform” etc. And when they DO win, it’s like, “Thank you for the victory, and the support we needed,” blah blah blah.
I swear, some people will find ANY excuse to attack the guy. He’s over-hyped, yeah. Is he over-exposed? Yeah. Is that his fault? No. That’s the media, not him.
No, I am contesting your claim of a contradiction between the verse you cited and the verse referenced in the opening paragraph. It is my contention there is no contradiction between these verses.
Furthermore, what plagues your argument in condemning Tebow as violating the presumed command to pray in private is the following.
First, do you understand Jesus’ remark of an absolute? If Jesus’ command is not absolute, by this I mean Jesus is not asserting one is to ALWAYS pray in private, then the logical inference is there are some circumstances when praying in public is permissible. I do not understand Jesus’ command to be one of ALWAYS pray in private and there is no support for this interpretation in the text itself. So, there are some instances when praying in public is permissible and more on this point in a moment.
Second, you assume Tebow is praying, maybe he is, maybe he isn’t, and how exactly do you know he is praying? Third, and this is in part related to the first point, your argument ignores the Greek meaning of the terms used by Christ in verses and the context in which he made them.
5"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites ; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.6"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you
First, Christ was condemning hypocrites praying in public. In Greek, this word means, “an actor, stage player, a dissembler, pretender.” So, Jesus is condemning those making a pretentious display of righteousness in public. Jesus is not deriding public prayer. Jesus is deriding public prayer when done by people for the express purpose of conveying to the public the outward appearance of righteousness when they are not righteous at all. * Interestingly enough, Jesus did not condemn public prayer but rather public prayer by hypocrites*.
At the time Jesus made these remarks, there were certain times of the day when Jews would typically pray. There were 3 designated times a day Jews would at least pray. Those designated times were 9 in the morning, noon and three in the afternoon. Jews were customed to stopping and praying in public in honor of the ritual to pray at specified times. Consequently, street corners and synagogues were common places of prayer as Jews, out conducting their business, would go to the synagogue to pray at the designated time or on the street corner in which they happened to be located. It should be observed, the synagogue, or temple, was a proper place to pray. Indeed, Jesus was incensed at the perversion of the temple from a “house of prayer” to a “den of thieves.” Jesus clearly was not condemning prayer in the synagogue.
However, Pharisees and Sadducees were notoriously known to intentionally leave their private residence and enter the public realm near the hour of prayer for the express purpose of praying in public to be seen by those in public, or intentionally congregrating at busy intersections of the street near prayer time to be seen by the public to be praying at the appointed time. Jesus is condemning this conduct.
Taking the verses together, Jesus is instructing his followers to pray in private and should they pray in public it should not be done as the “hypocrites” who are not righteous and seek to pray in public for the express purpose of making an ostentatious show of righteousness to the public.
Now, as this pertains to Tim Tebow. First, I am not sure Tebow is praying in public, as you assume. Rather, it could be Tebow is merely giving thanks to God in public, which does not necessarily constitute as prayer and indeed Jesus is known to have given thanks to God in public. Or it could be Tebow is publicly praising God in public, which Jesus also did. Matthew 14:19; Matthew 11:25; John 11:41;
Second, I am not convinced Tebow is the hypocrite praying in public Jesus derided in those verses.
Just my initial thoughts on the issue.
I also add, Troppus, it is my contention there is no contradiction between 5:15-16 and the verses at issue in Matthew 6. I am not convinced of the truthfulness of your assumption underlying your argument, which is the “light” and “good deeds” spoken of by Jesus is a reference to prayer or includes prayer. Your claim of a contradiction rests on the assumption Christ’s use of the word “light” and “good works” includes public prayer and there is no evidence or reasoned argument made to believe this assumption is true.
Given Jesus qualified his remarks by the inclusion of the word “hypocrite” and was condemning the action of the hypocrites praying in public, and did not deride non-hypocrites praying in public, and the context in which his remarks were made, this is the correct understanding of the verse.
Yeah. Two people acting differently is really hard to understand. Everyone should be the same. Especially religious people.
Wow, looong post for your initial thoughts. Once more: I *supported *Tebow’s Biblical impetus to pray in public by offering a verse which encourages same. I offered a verse that counters the snippet in the OP because I am aware (good lord, aren’t we all painfully aware) that Christians have long been encouraged to witness, and I knew where to find a verse supporting public shows of affliation.
I think Tebow is a tool for co-opting the NFL platform to gain attention for himself, his causes, or the religion of his understanding. I feel he is detracting from the game and from his team in general with his showboating. But he ain’t hiding his light under a bushel, so I assume he’s following Biblical directive and therefore his actions are not hypocritical, even when measured by Matthew 6, which refers to those who make a public display of affliation while behaving in ways contrary to Biblical teachings otherwise.
This cracks me up. As far as I can tell, no one in this thread has misunderstood any of the verses mentioned. The OP wondered if anyone felt that Tebow deserved the label hypocrite, because his public displays of affliation seem to eclipse any good works he has been credited with. But Tebow does appear to spend time off the field supporting mission work and other causes related to his beliefs, therefore he probably isn’t guilty of making an empty show of faith.
Seriously, folks, the Bible isn’t that hard to understand. I appreciate those who sweat over the verses as a method of prayer or devotion, but it isn’t any harder to figure out any English translation than it is to grok Shakespeare. It really isn’t that complicated, even with the varied translations and opinions offered by the many flavors of Christians.