Is Time an illusion?

Meatros asserts that is, in post 35 here: unravel the mystery - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board

This might end up in GD, but let’s try it here to start.

I will argue that it is not an illusion. It is a commonly-shared human frame of reference that has great and obvious social utility. Things happen, or don’t happen, with the passage of time. If time did not exist, we would have no sense of yesterday, today, or tomorrow, let alone five minutes ago or a century from now. Without time, everything would happen, or be happening, simultaneously, and that way lies madness.

What say you?

Saying that time is an illusion is a perfect example of sophistry.

“Time is an illusion,
Lunchtime, doubly so”

Douglas Adams: The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy.

Everything is happening simultaneously, we just process it by applying a time frame.

Commas may be used anywhere in dialogue or exposition to indicate the tempo of speech. I may have to use that over in GD, in the future.

So, presumably everywhere is the same place, we just process it by applying a space frame?

But if time is an illusion, then you’ve already applied it. And are applying it now.

I have the feeling this entry wandered over from another thread. Chessic Sense hasn’t posted in this one yet. At least, not yet in the imaginary time frame I’m using.

A couple earlier threads:

Oh, those threads are so yesterday. :wink:

Time is an abstract idea that we humans use to plan and schedule our lives. The past is gone and can never be changed; the future hasn’t happened yet. All we have is now. Sure, we can predict what should happen, and are able to do so with great accuracy. For example I’m going for lunch now, unless a large meteorite strikes me dead or something. I don’t know what the soup is though. I’ll let you know in the future if it was good or not.

Yes, but it’s a very big place.

When did theoretical physics turn into an exercise in nihilistic philosophy? First there was this “time is an illusion” business, now Stephen Hawking thinks that the fact that gravity exists somehow proves that there’s no God.

Can someone please ask these guys to go out and do something useful?

Following the multi-world interpretation of quantum dynamics, one might say other times are special cases of other universes. If you already posit the existence of “parallel” universes, time becomes merely a part of how one understands how the laws of physics relate one moment of a universe to the next. The difference between one universe and another universe at a supposed instant (which might not be instantaneous to some observers due to relativistic effects) is comparable to the difference within a universe at one time to the next; what differs is how the laws of physics provide correlations between the two.

That might just be complete nonsense, but at the very least I read it in some popular book on the nature of reality written by a physicist. At least he (at one time) thought it was the correct way to understand time. The idea that time “flows” was abhorrent to him, despite the intuitive truth of it.

My bad, I completely missed this.

It’s difficult to be clear on this, I find. It’s not that time is an illusion in one sense - that is, it is a useful construct that we use throughout our lives.

In another sense, the distinction between past, present, and future is - I think - an illusion. There are several theories on this, which can be lumped into two basic ideas. The A theory of time and the B theory.

I support the B theory, put forward by McTaggart.

Here’s his argument:

Here’s another way to look at time (eternalism) and the primary reason why I think the A theory is wrong:

“Special relativity has shown that the concept of simultaneity is not universal: observers in different frames of reference can have different perceptions of whether a given pair of events happened at the same time or at different times, with there being no physical basis for preferring one frame’s judgments over another’s (though in a case where one event A happens in the past light cone of another event B, all frames will agree that A happened in the past of B). So, in special relativity there can be no physical basis for picking out a unique set of events that are all happening simultaneously in “the present”.”

If there can be different simultaneous ‘presents’ then this suggests, to me, that the past, present, and future exist (and always do). It’s hard to see how, on the A theory, that it can account for simultaneous presents.

If the past ‘disappears’ and the future ‘hasn’t happened’, then how is the grandfather paradox possible? How can the ‘present’ be relative to the observer?

There are some objections (on the wiki), that primarily deal with how we perceive time.

There’s quite a trend at the moment to declare things as illusions, or epiphenomenal.

Usually this is in regards to phenomena that are unsolved and are somewhat confusing or paradoxical (with a small ‘p’).

My view is that an illusion hypothesis has to bring something to the table. All “illusion” really means is that there is an explanation that better fits all observations than perhaps taking something at face value e.g. “I’m not really a vampire, it was just a dream”.
If no explantion with better predictive power exists, then “illusion” is just handwaving away an unsolved phenomenon.

I should note that while I subscribe to the B theory and I think I have somewhat of a grasp on it, I’m not an expert and it often confuses me. :smiley:

Here’s some more links:
Ontology of time - Richard Carrier

For a really technical look at it (too technical for me), look at Quentin Smith’s work: Here.

Time is as much an illusion as height, width and depth. I suppose you could argue that all four dimensions are illusory. If so, go for it, but don’t single out time and pretend its different from the other three dimensions.

In general relativity it’s even worse! Defining even an observer-dependent concept of the present can be at best arbitary and at worst impossible. Infact if you allow a more general class of observer in special relativity you get many of the same problems with defining a ‘spatially-extended’ present as you do in general relativity.

I would agree with you - I think that the ‘illusion’ theory actually explains time and relativity better then the A theory.

As a point of reference, more philosopher accept the B theory over the A theory (according to this site):

26.3% B-Theory of time
15.4% A-Theory of time
58.2% other
Not sure what the ‘other’ is though…

I think you are right - I think special relativity may just be easier to explain to people.

I think the argument would be that what we refer to as time is actually a dimension - sort of. The flow of time is what is the illusion.

If you think of all events, past, present, and future as existent, you could say event X happened here (point on the map) at this time. That would, in reality (on the b theory), refer to an actual place.

Here’s a picture that might help.