Is torture porn mainstream?

From this thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=469278):

My position is torture porn is mainstream. I like Evil Captor’s take on this issue:

And here is some information on the Saw films I posted in the other thread:

How can anyone claim that films that open wide in all the national theater chains and are marketed on in all the major forms of media are not mainstream? Further the major torture porn films have B-level and direct to DVD knockoffs. These films are also reviewed (they get bad reviews) by the major movie reviewers.

Your ideas interest me. I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

“Torture porn”? I suppose I grew up callint it “horror”, but I’ve certainly noticed that the T&A quotient has gone way up over the decades.

Yes, of course it is mainstream. I don’t know what percentage of new film releases fit into the category, but anecdotally it seems like half or more of the ads I see are for some kind of monster flick – human monsters included.

Do movies like Cloverfield or Blair Witch fit in here? Or are we talking soley about your various and sundry Freddie and Chainsaw flicks?

Sorry, BTW, I hardly ever watch any of these things, including the ones I noted above, so if one or more is really an outlier, then I’m sure it’s my mistake.

Since I generally don’t watch 'em, I can only go with what I see on the trailers, and I see very little diffrence there among them.

The first Saw movie wasn’t really all that gorey, for being a horror movie. I wouldn’t say that it was any worse that Se7en or such. And anytime you have a success, the sequels are likely to do better even if they aren’t quite as mainstream (witness Alien 3 and Alien Resurrection.) So I think you would need to compare the success of the sequels to sequels of other successes and see if the curve is the same.

Hostel wasn’t terribly mainstream from what I could tell. It was more something that the sort who like somethingrotten.com or whatever would go to. Of course that’s a group of people who are in the core demographic of movie-going. Male teens.

lissener does not seem to be using the mainstream definition of ‘mainstream’.

After Saw and Hostel, I don’t really see how anybody can deny that it’s as mainstream as anything. Certainly at least as mainstream as any other horror subgenre (slasher, monster, etc.).

Granted, but it was the closest term I could come up with to describe what I meant. Hopefully the ensuing clarifications made that, um, clearer.

“Mainstream,” like many English words, has many different shades and connotations. Speaking strictly as the OP of this thread is–mainstream as to the market response–then obviously many torture porn movies have become finanncially mainstream. I was using the word more in the artistic sense than the financial sense; to describe the content, not the audience response. The word is valid in both contexts, given adequate clarification.

So yes, to repeat myself, speaking about the market response, then the Saws and the Hostels are definitely, now at any rate, in the financial/marketplace mainstream.

Torture porn is a specific subgenre* of horror. I think of it as a post-Abu Ghraib phenomenon, wherein prolonged scenes of torture are the main raison d’etre of the move; torture for titillation. T&A content is irrelevant; it’s porn because it’s purely exploitative and clinical.

*(Which raises an interesting question: is a subgenre, being a subgenre, mainstream?)

NY Times Mag article on torture porn:

And Wikipedia:

Is “torture porn” a well-understood term of art that unambiguously applies to “Saw,” “Hostel,” and the like?

I ask because I’ve never heard the term before…

Well, it’s one of those things that I swear I made up myself; I remember the conversation I was having and the thought process I went through to “invent” the term by synthesizing the two concepts. But then a week later I saw the NYTimes article linked above, having missed my chance to trademark it. :stuck_out_tongue: So it seems to be an obvious enough synthesis that it precipitated out of the culture, as it were, in more than one place. I’m just one of the hundred monkeys. So it’s a relatively new term–it’s a relatively recent phenomenon, after all–but I thinks it’s become pretty well understood.

See the post just above yours.

What more evidence do you need than Times articles to say it has become mainstream?

Me neither. But I don’t get out as much as I used too. Usually watch a dvd when one comes out that I didn’t catch in a theater. My wife enjoys those kinds of flicks, me I’ve seen enough blood and guts to last a lifetime.

I thought it was more of an opinion kind of question myself. Hope I won’t get a warning. :eek:

Well, what’s the difference between Jason stalking after teens with a knife, or Freddy giving kids nightmares in which their are gruesomely maimed, tortured and killed, and stories about Euroscum who capture and sell people to be used as torture/murder victims? What makes one “torture porn” and the others not? To me, they’re all really unpleasant. (Disclosure: I don’t like horror films generally and slasher flicks in particular, which is why the only horror flick I’ve watched in particular is the first Halloween flick. So I’m not really the one to answer these questions.) Is “An American Crime” torture porn? If not, why not?

Is “torture porn” the product of some wacky fringe fetish group that just so happens to have tapped into a major, underground western market, or is there something else, something darker and more embarrassing to acknowledge here about the culture in question? Is there, perhaps, an ever-increasing drive for greater stimulation, for the ultimate in shocking imagery and media? I remember 10 years ago when it still seemed scandalous to find graphic porn on the internet. Now not only can you find graphic porn with a freakin’ Google search, you can easily find all manner of images and videos of the worst kinds of torture, rape, mutilation, you name it. By the time that the Daniel Pearl abduction and subsequent execution/beheading happened, I not only knew that it would hit the internet, I knew two or three sites that were most likely to have the video posted, within hours. With that sort of real-life horror to compete against, could it be that filmmakers have felt pressure to up the ante to keep pace? What does a horror filmmaker do to compete with an actual beheading caught on camera? Or a video of someone being set on fire (for real)? More disturbing than that, why is it that an effort to emulate such acts in cinema will almost assuredly find an eager audience? Why do I want to be shocked, offended, repulsed? I don’t think this line of questioning is unique to the “torture porn” subgenre; people were asking similar questions when Universal’s Frankenstein came out. With each generation, the body count, the amount of flesh shown, the level of violence depicted has increased. What do you do when you’re at the limit of the depiction of physical violence in a movie? You have to up the level of psychological torture to get through to audiences. When Frankenstein came out, there was a massive backlash. How could anyone make such a movie, some asked. By the time Halloween came out, people generally saw Frankenstein as a classic, but not really all that scary. By the time Saw came out, Halloween was seen as a classic but not really all that scary. Nowadays, we have Hostel and Miike films like Audition and Ichi the Killer; it used to be that horror films were competing to show the most fake blood. Now they’re trying to depict the most mental and emotional anguish along with the physical pain.

My prediction is that more of the shocking stuff will find its way into the mainstream, and so the pioneers, the trailblazing horror filmmakers will have to find a way to get people’s attention, and they will continue to push the envelope to do so. In Scrapbook, the action and dialogue is mostly ad-libbed, and the lead male (who has abducted the lead female) rapes a woman and steps away for a moment, only to return and urinate on the woman. Unscripted. Real urine. With the willing consent of both actors, in the interest of making the film as realistic as possible. This sort of thing (available as a Watch Instantly selection on Netflix!) would of course never fly in the theaters…but then again, fifteen years ago, do you think people would have said the same thing about Hostel? Fifteen, ten, five years from now, is it possible that we’ll have movies like Scrapbook in theaters? Is it possible that the legendary snuff film will emerge as the final frontier for underground horror films?

The preceding random neural firings were brought to you by Peppermint Schnaaps and the letter D.

I’ve seen it used in dozens of places now. It’s a new term for a new kind of movie.

And to be honest, it’s the best term you could possibly come up with. There’s no better way of describing movies like “Hostel” and “Saw.”

Obviously the distinction is a judgment call to some extent. But the inclusion of the word “porn” suggests the distinction, to me. IOW, what’s the difference between a movie that happens to include sex scenes, and pornography? (If you can answer that definitively, btw, you should be on the Supreme Court.) You simply know it when you see it. “Pornography” is generally used to describe a film whose sole raison d’etre is the sex scene, whose sole purpose, in turn, is sexual titillation. “Torture porn,” perhaps hyperbolically, suggests that the torture scenes–which tend, by the way, to be just as clinical as the sex scenes in a porno–are the movie’s entire raison d’etre, and, further, that their only purpose is sadistic titillation.

Obviously, the entire discussion is awash in gray areas and subjectivity. Nonetheless, that’s the distinction meant to be suggested by the term.

In my opinion, An American Crime is far from torture porn; Jack Ketchum’s The Girl Next Door (which was inspired by, but does not pretend to be an accurate depiction of the Indiana Torture Murder of Sylvia Likens) is almost torture porn in the sense that it depicts human suffering (physical and emotional) in more graphic detail.What would have pushed them over the edge on that one? They would have had to show in graphic detail the actual mutilation of the girl and the reactions of everyone involved.

The differences, I think, between traditional horror and torture porn is (a) the camera doesn’t cut away when something horrific is about to happen to someone and (b) the camera lingers on the sufferer and the one who inflicts the suffering to get their reactions. It’s not enough for a torture porn flick to indicate that a woman has been raped; you have to witness it almost in its entirety and then you are forced to watch the victim afterwards cry and scream and have whatever other reactions she (or he) will have. That, to me, is the #1 difference between mainstream horror and “torture porn.” Just like Skinemax softcore porno movies will show you tits and ass and simulated sex but no insertion, no money shot, no “extreme” scenarios, but probably now hundreds of web sites will offer disturbingly realistic rape and humiliation and torture pictures or videos. The number of such sites out there is growing, and it’s simple supply and demand; there is obviously a paying market out there for this stuff.

All of this adds credence to my hypothesis that humanity is doomed. I should just turn goth and cut to the chase.

And the subjective sense that you get that the purpose for the lingering camera is for the audience to indulge in sadistic titillation. That’s the main distinction, for me, and of course the most subjective and impossible to quantify or codify. “You know it when you see it.”