He might even quite genuinely not realize that he’s doing it.
I was once in an argument with my father, and he started yelling at me. I said “Don’t shout at me!” and he yelled back “I AM NOT SHOUTING!!!”
Well, that was my father, who I did indeed know well, and wasn’t afraid of. I burst out laughing. After a moment so did he; and I was able to convince him that he had indeed shouted at me. But he was a doctor, and as a teenager in the summers I worked in the records room. If we needed a record we thought might have been left in his office, they’d send me up to ask for it; because the other people there were afraid of being yelled at. I told him this, and he said in genuine puzzlement, “I don’t yell at them.”
And I don’t suppose, in the 1960’s, that there was any such thing as HR to discuss it with; or that the people working there thought this wasn’t just something they were expected to put up with. So nobody was going to tell him.
You can if you like. But I think it’s pretty clear why it’s more straightforward to set such a baseline for unnecessary things that impact people physically, such as touches and smells and noises, than to set it for specific topics of conversation.
I apologize if I did. I was quoting and answering Czarcasm, wasn’t I? – oh, maybe I see. Czarcasm was quoting you.
I wasn’t thinking of you, but of answering and agreeing with Czarcasm; and wanted to back Czarcasm up because a number of other posts scattered through the thread had complained that the woman in the original story should have spoken privately with the toucher before going to HR.
I don’t think that an institutional culture of workplace hugging is necessarily more “warm and humanized” than an institutional culture without it. And I can’t help feeling sorry for any of your colleagues who may be going along with your workplace hugging customs not because they really enjoy it but because they worry about coming across as “cold and inhuman” if they resist it.
BTW, this was the original tale, and it wasn’t told as a hypothetical. It was set in a military meeting, and the OP(who seems to be in denial when it comes to sexual harassment in the military) made statements of “fact” about how this was a one-time only deal, and that HR got on the guy on that report alone, when he couldn’t possibly have known that either was true. Now, I have no problems with hypotheticals, but when said “hypothetical” copies almost exactly a supposedly true tale told by another, I tend to question the details.
Hugging is another level. The right thing is if you are a hugger is to open your arms wide, signalling a hug is coming in and say something like “hugs?”- and let them demur. But* offering* one in that case is Ok.
I’m extremely touch-averse, unless you’re family or a very close friend. If you’re in either of those privileged categories, you can touch me wherever. If you’re not, well… I’m fine with ritualized touch such as handshakes or, say, a TSA patdown. On the other hand, things like tapping, patting on the back, or a hand on the shoulder make me uncomfortable. In the scenario where I need to get someone’s attention, I usually place my hand on their desk within their peripheral eyesight. I’ve never had a problem doing this. I can’t recall a time I’ve touched anyone at work outside of a handshake, and I would not feel comfortable doing so. On the other hand, I asked my wife this question, and she responded “Of course!” in a tone that made the question seem obviously ridiculous. She works in theater, and there’s often an emotional closeness among the actors. She also often needs to touch her actors for blocking, demonstration, etc.
Does punching someone in the shoulder count? What about jostling? Sitting on someone? Grabbing someone’s arm? IMHO men are much more casual about touching each other – that’s part of the problem with mixed-gender workplaces.
However, to “control what they say”, men generally use a much more direct approach: something like “That’s enough” or “Shut up”. The problem with that is that normal gender roles and linguistic conventions prevent men from giving explicit direction to women. Some women are offended by touch: almost all women are offended by explicit direction. Hence the gentle indirect suggestion by touching on the wrist.
I have been counselled for putting my hand behind a woman’s shoulder to encourage her to go forward. It was not something my sisters would have objected to, and we were by no means a touchy-feely family. Nor was it part of a pattern of behaviour. But she was offended, and I was required to make an apology (or get fired). Not so much that she gave a single damn about if I was sorry, but the apology was a formal acknowledgment of the power relationship between us.
Wow, I’ve never experienced a workplace where men regularly tackled each other, nor have I ever had any problem saying words to women without them exploding at me. I must be special.
Even in non-touchy-feely families, the etiquette for casual touching between siblings is usually somewhat different from the etiquette for casual touching between unrelated co-workers.
I don’t understand. Of course you had already immediately and voluntarily apologized for touching her as soon as she indicated she didn’t like it, right? No decent person would wait to be “required” (much less threatened with firing) to apologize for unwanted touching, however inadvertent or well-intentioned. So you’re saying that for some reason she was insisting that you apologize again?
The more I hear about this issue, the more strongly I’m convinced that the default etiquette baseline of “Don’t touch other people in the workplace” is a good idea for all concerned.
Yes. When you reprimand one class of people and ignore it in other classes what you’re doing is discriminatory. I sure as heck don’t want to stand before a judge and explain to him that we punished Bob for the same behavior that we ignored in Sally, Susan, and Stephanie.
Men give explicit directions to women all the time, and vice versa. It’s entirely normal behavior.
Admittedly, if the only way you can think of to verbally stop somebody from talking in a business meeting is to say “shut up”, you may indeed find that people get offended. A lot of them will be male, however.
– how on earth would that even work? ‘I’m going to explain to you how to assemble this equipment by pushing you around in the right directions’?!
This sums up my thoughts on it. If Mary doesn’t want any physical contact at all, fine. If Bob is not religious, I will not ask if he has accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.
But damn, don’t have global rules so that we don’t risk offending an extreme minority while at the same time making the workplace frigid, cold, and distant because everyone else wants to act like regular human beings.
Plenty of regular human beings are just fine with not casually touching or being touched by their co-workers. There are plenty of warm and friendly ways to keep a workplace from being “frigid, cold, and distant” without ever putting your hands on people.
In fact, being pleasant and nice to your co-workers without touching them is so easy that I’m seriously starting to wonder about the bona fides of some of the people who are so vehemently opposed to a default keep-your-hands-to-yourself workplace policy.
After all, you and your consenting workplace buddies can go on slapping one another’s backs and punching one another’s shoulders all you like. Why are you so resistant to the notion of simply keeping your hands to yourself when dealing with a co-worker who’s not one of your consenting buddies?
Why do you have to make such a song and dance out of calling them “hypersensitive” “freaks” and so forth, and demanding that they must state their preferences up front in order to qualify for an exemption from your default handsiness? This is starting to come across like the gaslighting techniques of creepers and sexists who try to intimidate and humiliate their targets into not objecting to their behavior.
Your co-workers aren’t your family or your therapy group, and you aren’t entitled to expect any degree of physical intimacy from them by default. Not even at the relatively innocuous level of shoulder pats or wrist taps or elbow nudges. If you’re not able to do your job with effectiveness and human warmth in a non-contact workplace because you feel depressed or physically deprived by the absence of touch, that’s an issue with you, not with your co-workers.
