…I’m not sure what is so confusing. Trans women are women.
Moderating:
- “Male” is used to describe both sex and gender.
- If you want to be really explicit about the biological details of trans women, the polite term is “assigned male at birth”, or “AMAB”.
- No one refers to trans women as “male” unless they are trying to pick a fight or erase the existence of trans women.
I remind you that this is a topic the board has agreed not to re-litigate.
Also, this thread is not about sports, and that threatens to become a hijack. So let’s return to why some cis people are afraid of trans people.
I think the main driver behind “trans fear” is trans hatred. It’s standard after all; when people hate something they typically demonize it as something dangerous so they can justify their aggression. Racists talk about how dangerous other races are, religious fanatics about how dangerous unbelievers/heretic are, xenophobes about how dangerous foreigners are, communists/capitalists about how dangerous the other side is, and so on.
So of course people who hate trans people work themselves into a frenzy about how horrifying, disgusting and dangerous trans people are. That way they can beat some poor trans person to death and feel righteous about it.
I was with you until this part.
I think modern society is much more tolerant of male on male violence, if we’re doing this like-for-like. Yes, if an elderly man were set upon by a much younger guy and put in intensive care then that will be rightly taken very seriously and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. But the same is true if an elderly woman was attacked by a stranger.
Meanwhile less serious assaults, where there’s a verbal altercation first or the people know each other…I think it’s largely seen by society as normal “rough-and-tumble” for men and would be taken less seriously than if the victim were a woman. Not to say that men can’t press charges, particularly if they’re rich, but no-one gives a toss.
And the distinction is probably even more stark for rape, though don’t get me wrong, I’m not coming at this from some kind of “men have it worse” MRA. Rape and sexual assault is undoubtedly way, way more common against adult women than adult men.
Imagine if a lesbian woman discovered that the woman she was getting involved with turned out to really be a straight man in drag. I get the impression of a double-standard: that no one would take the attitude of “ha-ha, you thought were kissing a girl! Isn’t that cute and funny and precious?” that seems to be the default when straight men are deceived by trannies. A percentage of militants would cheer if the lesbian woman castrated the man.
Yes because transwomen trying to prank cis men in this way, and other people laughing about said prank are common things that happen in the real world.
So let’s use it as a jumping off point for speculating about a double standard.
I do recall two examples somewhat like that hitting the news some years ago; it being discovered that a “husband” was actually a woman and a “wife” was actually a man, with the spouses not knowing. People made fun of the husband who was fooled but were sympathetic to the woman who was.
In the US? They were legally married without knowing the gender assignment at birth?
Technically, the hypothetical was a straight man pranking the lesbian. No trans women were involved.
It’s not a common thing, wasn’t intended as a common thing. It was an attempt to contrast how a straight man doing that would be received, versus the situation that is overhyped in media about a man finding out his date is a trans woman. It was reflecting on society’s messed up attitude on the response.
The post I was replying to compared two hypotheticals, one of which involved a transwoman pranking a cis man and implied that it is common by referring to both the action and public reaction to it in the plural.
So I am not following your objection here. I didn’t raise the concept of such a prank, I am saying I find it extremely dubious.
Apparently not. I don’t really recall the details except that the woman passing as a man was also a fairly well known musician in her time.
googles
What do you know, there’s a Straight Dope column on them; Billy Tipton. A jazz musician, so I got that right.
I don’t know where to start with this-
“lesbian woman” Isn’t woman redundant here?
Can you back up that “impression” with evidence of any kind? Or is it just a feeling you have?
Trans women are women. That is not just my opinion. It is the official position of the SDMB. They are not ‘deceiving’ any one. Also, I thought board rules banned the t-word as hate speech. Am I wrong on that?
Again, is that just your opinion or is it backed by any kind of evidence? Second, I concede that a vanishingly small, lunatic fringe of “militants” (a term you do not even attempt to define) would feel that way. You seem to think it would be a significant amount. Why is that?
Sounds to me like this silly strawman is saying a transsexual and a recreational cross-dresser have the same motivations and society should treat them the same.
Which is nutso.
There is a really good biography on Billy Tipton, called “Suits Me” (IIRC, its been twenty years or longer since I read it). And I’d use he/him pronouns with Tipton, he lived as a man, went by him/her pronouns in life, and while I’m not a big fan of posthumously tagging someone with queer tags in the “Abe Lincoln was gay!” way, having read about Tipton, I’m pretty comfortable with that one. (Also Albert Cashiers).
My own two cents, informed by some gender studies and a friend who works in human rights, is most transphobia, and most homophobia, and a whole lot of racism has its roots in the original sin of misogyny. To justify the misogyny that has existed across most cultures throughout most of what we know of human history, you need clear gender lines. Blur those gender lines and you start making people question misogyny. And our society - and most human societies - are built on the idea that women are caretakers and hold less power than men. Which is part of the racism thing - once you define one class of people as powerless, it becomes easy, perhaps even necessary, to define other classes of people as powerless.
We put up with people who deceive us all the time. Sometimes we even celebrate them. Transphobia is deeper. Its the fear of men that gender is, indeed, a construct. That their masculinity is not assured simply because they have a penis, and that not everyone is on board with the idea that a penis grants power and privilege. Transwomen are the gender equivalent of race traitors.
Moderating:
“trannies” is a very offensive word to use in a discussion of Trans or Transgender people. I’m surprised you’re unaware of this, but will assume you somehow are. It is not a word generally used today outside of automotive discussions or by people trying to be offensive.
Please do not make this mistake again or we’ll assume you’re trying to be offensive. This will lead to at least a warning.
Unless you have some evidentiary basis to make a claim that lesbian women regularly are being hoodwinked by straight men in drag, it would appear your post is constructed solely to offend transgendered persons. It’s pure hyperbole and trollish. After discussion in the mod loop, we’ve determined it’s worthy of an official Warning.
Are you conflating straight men in drag with trans women? I personally know a few lesbians who date trans women. I know one who married a trans woman who gave up on medically changing her body to look more female. But her friends all know she’s a woman.
I think “surprise penis” would be problematic in the majority of intimate encounters, and assume that trans women bring up the topic before pulling down their pants, and probably before kissing. I mean, unless you are attending an orgy, people usually talk about themselves to potential partners before getting intimate. And if you choose to attend an orgy, well, you kind of know what you are getting into.
A cis man in drag, lying to get into someone’s pants, is certainly offensive. Whether he’s lying to straight men or to gay women. I don’t think there’s a double standard there. The man is more likely to kill the liar. The woman is more likely to wind up pregnant. So there’s a biological double standard. But socially? I think the liar will be despised by others both ways.
Thank you for this analysis. That’s the type of discussion I was seeking.
I’m a little curious about the idea that racism is a result of misogyny. I understand what you are saying, but I don’t think the causality is there.
Identity privilege does seem to be a unifying theme. It’s an egotism of identity, a basic concept that "I’m the greatest, therfore, anyone different than me is inferior. And then cherry picking evidence to fit that narrative.
I think you are very much right that the trigger for transphobia is that perceived attack on their own identity. The cultural machismo that defines “real men” requires a response to a perceived attack on that status. It’s at the heart of honor code societies, it’s in the hierarchy protocols embedded in our response to threats.
It’s why “gay” became such an insult in the '90s. Why it was used as a derogatory description for anything a person didn’t like.
I think the gender role structure is based on that power dynamic, and it reinforces the privilege status. So attacking gender roles and gender identity as a concept is an attack on their personal status and identity.
My question about deception was in the discomfort some people have seeing someone that defies the gender expectations. It can be trans women, or it can be ambiguous cases.
We humans do a lot of classifying and sorting in our heads. It’s a way of processing potential threats, finding allies, establishing social hierarchy, etc. Breaking the expected norms breaks the mental classification system.
Some people are more adept at adjusting their classifications to accept a new category. Others resist changing their model and want the world to conform to their personal system.
So to summarize, I think there are two responses (or more) that are occurring simultaneously.
The first is the visual categorization discomfort, which is mild but present for some people.
The second is the deeper feeling of attack on their personal status and identity.
Oops, I misunderstood. Looking again at what was actually said about the second case, there are several troubling framings that have been called out. You are correct.
Or a trans sexual versus an asshole prankster. Yes, the comparison is pretty straw-based. I think I was seeing something that wasn’t there.
I think that in general, people who are more confident in their personal status and identity are less likely to be transphobic and homophobic. At least, “far men in the closet attacking gays” is a meme, and i bet there’s truth to it. I think it’s easier for people who are either secure in their heterosexuality, or comfortable with their feelings of same-sex attraction to be comfortable with people who are “other”. The same is probably true for people who are comfortable with their place on the spectrum of gender identity.
I think a word’s missing here - did you mean “far right men”?
Huh, I figured autocorrect turned “gay” to “far”.