And, to build on this: because they don’t understand that some people don’t identify with their at-birth gender, and they can’t conceptualize how someone could feel that way, they have decided that anyone who says that they feel that way is lying, or making things up – and, thus, they are perfectly justified in refusing to accept a trans person’s preferred identity.
The name for that belief is “essentialism”, by the way. Thus the term “gender essentialism” - the gender-specific version of that belief.
…or mentally ill—they categorize a “man who thinks he’s a woman” similarly to “a man who thinks he’s Napoleon.”
Or just profoundly mentally ill. That’s the usual thing I’ve heard from people I’ve heard talk about it.
Yes, I agree that’s a big factor for a lot of people. “No, I’ve always defined people this way and will continue to do so.”
I just think the obstinacy comes from that unconscious suspicion of why that person is “lying”.
@HMS_Irruncible did a better job saying what I meant. It’s that “why are they trying to deceive me? What do they have to gain? How are they taking advantage of me?”
It may even be a bit of not wanting to be made to look like a fool. “Ha ha, I tricked you and you feel for it.”
Not necessarily as conscious motives, but underlying unconscious ones.
I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. Maybe you’ve been banned from those places for not making any sense? Equating people to fake hair is a bit demeaning.
I certainly don’t explore this out of a sense of justifying it. It’s more an observation about my own feelings and an attempt to see what drives people.
I think we can work to understand the causes in order to find ways of getting through to some of them without dismissing legitimate harm or justifying bad behavior.
I think you are right.
I appreciation all the comments.
Ah, in that case yes, we’re largely in agreement (although there wasn’t that much disagreement in the first place!). Absolutely a lot of people who fear trans persons in general are because they’re always looking for what their “angle” is, and just don’t get it. Or, as is a chronic issue for our species, constantly judging others by their own standards and (limited) understanding only.
But the thing that amplifies the fear of “being tricked” is the absolute terror of having any thought or feeling that could be considered even remotely adjacent to non-heterosexuality and disapproval of same in others. I think that’s really the root of it.
Intolerance is often an attitude that pervades more than one area of a person’s beliefs - that is, people who are intolerant about one thing, are quite likely to be intolerant about a whole lot of things and this often includes intolerance of other people’s failure to align with their intolerance.
“You ought not to be trans” goes hand in hand with “everyone ought not to disagree with me about this”
…it isn’t about “fear.”
Racism isn’t driven by fear. It’s driven by an inmate sense of superiority. Misogyny isn’t driven by fear. It’s about power.
The reality is that “trans fear” is being driven by a multi-million dollar propaganda and marketing campaign by people that either hate trans people, or are indifferent but anti-trans propaganda is profitable, so they’ll jump on the bandwagon. That’s really about it. They fan the fear. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. Or so my little green friend would say. But the fear is largely manufactured, and needs to be viewed through that lens.
As I’d said upthread, I don’t doubt your good motives. And yes, understanding the other side is the first step to effectively engaging them to counteract them.
But the rest of the risk I cited is still out there. Perhaps not for you personally, but for many.
@Banquet_Bear: 'Zactly. This is predominantly manufactured controversy. Manufactured for the purpose of ushering in a finance-capital driven klepto-Fascist government.
And ~80M Americans fell for it hook, line, sinker, and rowboat.
Agreed.
And I was trying to say not that categorization is never useful, but that its misuse can be dangerous.
– I’m not up to getting into essentialism tonight, except to say that I don’t think it’s synonymous with what I was trying to discuss, though I see a relationship.
I don’t think that’s always true. A desire to have power over others often comes from a fear of others having power over oneself. And people who want to feel superior but are afraid that they aren’t sometimes react by declaring others inferior.
I think you’re right about that, though.
I think more than one answer can be true. The trans panic seems an almost perfect confluence of the things that trigger conservatives particularly, but many people in modern society more generally:
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General ick factor or uncanny valley depending on where someone’s appearance and voice seems to lie on the gender spectrum. People generally have a hard time separating out “ick” from immorality, because both can give the same sense of revulsion.
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Yes the deception thing that the OP outlines.
I remember there was even a phase in rap music where many songs had a verse where the rapper would take home the hottest woman he’d ever seen except – spoiler – she had a penis. Needless to say he would always either sprint out of there or commit assault.
And of course lots of times in movies too, as mentioned.
It *is* there as a concern, no matter how ridiculous the scenario is in reality. -
Discomfort at the conflicted feelings / bi-curious.
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Putting people into male and female boxes remains one of the very last acceptable ways to group people. And by that, I don’t mean expecting women to be homemakers, but there remains lots of expectations of gender roles, and not just by sexists; it remains one of the first things you need to declare on a form for a reason.
I get that it’s a big deal, for conservatives, for the hard lines to be blurring. It would basically leave only age as a reliable grouping factor.
FTR I don’t personally care about any of the stuff I’ve listed.
And of course, the above is not sufficient for a moral panic.
For that, conservatives have had to invent the idea that trans is inherently tied up with grooming children and/or doing drive-thru operations on children. I didn’t include that in the list because this is more tied to moral panics than the phenomenon itself; if next month the moral panic is baggy jeans there would be memes about how people are using baggy jeans to abduct children.
Yeah, fear can be a symptom, but it’s not the disease.
Edit: I suppose some people might just be independently feeling fear or uncertainty just from having their norms challenged, but insofar as there is an anti-trans movement, it’s not driven by fear as a root cause. They’ll happily gather up the fearful and try to onboard them though, I suppose.
I think just fear of not being a part of our tribe is part of it. I haven’t figured out exactly what “woke ideology” is except it’s whatever they don’t like. I can see that - especially on trans athletes - some people may wonder “hey this guy can’t compete with real guys so he wears a dress and calls himself a woman.” I have trouble conceiving of someone that desperate, it makes no sense to me. I think also, the constant barrage of “trans” mudslinging was a possible factor in the election. When I’m confronted with a topic I don’t understand, I usually check it out with reliable sources to find out the truth. Many, I think, are too lazy to do that (or fear they might have to change their mind).
I’m using “fear” in a more colloquial sense of aversion. It’s the lack of understanding of how someone could feel that way combined with the innate psychology of suspicion over being taken advantage of, plus a generally rigid way of thinking.
I think there is a bit of actual fear at what kind of perversion they are up to, i.e. the bathroom stuff. But that isn’t the biggest issue.
Remember, men dressing as women has been a longtime gag played for amusement and derision. Mockery.
But the concept of someone actually feeling different than their body is something most of us don’t experience and so a lot of people react with skepticism.
It doesn’t help that drag shows and drag queens get dragged into the picture. The historical roots of that tied to burlesque just triggers the morality police. It feeds the narrative that transgenders are “cross dressing” for some devious, perverted purpose.
Yes, I’m aware drag queens are different than transgender. The morality police, though, tend to conflate the two, or lump them under the same concept.
I think the definitions and sorting factor are key components. “You’re not conforming to my expectations, how dare you?”
I think the things you listed are all valid. And I might add fear of change, and generally feeling dissatisfied with or out of place in the modern world and longing for the world one grew up in, when “girls were girls and men were men” and nobody talked about transexuality.
I’m not even sure if these things are triggers in the sense that they just happen along and push someone’s buttons. Conservatives seem like they are actively seeking things to get upset about.
I think it’s another “both things…”
Conservatives do want things to be outraged about. We had many years of a fake “war on Christmas” both in the UK and the US (I think to a lesser extent).
And you have examples like the recent release of a game with an attractive female protagonist, where people with large followings on X were asking said followers to try to find reviews criticizing the sexiness of the game. Eventually finding a review from IGN France that seemed somewhat critical and then pretending to be offended at how crazy woke reviews have gotten.
But it’s also true that trans works better than stuff like war on Christmas. As I say, it presses some ick buttons for some people.
Good point. I suppose a lot of this thread has been ‘not this, actually that’, when the reality might be ‘all of those things’ in assortment and combination.
I have to agree with the thread title. The story of Gwen Araujo (I may have spelled her last name wrong. I mean absolutely no insult or disrespect) has been thoroughly discussed on the Dope. In case any body does not remember-
Gwen lived in the American Southwest. She went to a party fillled with other teenagers. She met a cute boy. They danced. They decided to go someplace more private. They kissed a lot. At some point, with mutual consent, Gwen performed oral sex on the boy. They went back to the party, The boy (I assume after bragging to his friends about how he had scored with a hot girl. That is just how teenage boys are) learned that Gwen was a pre op trans girl. He took the news very badly, and beat her to death. At his trial, he claimed the ‘trans panic defense’. The jury agreed with him. I cannot recall if he was given just a minor slap on the wrist or acquitted outright.
While the viewpoint on the SDMB is generally more enlightened, Gwen’s story still represents how most Americans feel about trans people.
Just Shoot Me had an episode where a character’s childhood best friend has transitioned and the character is having trouble dealing with it. The portrayal was generally sympathetic. BUT, rather than an actual trans woman, the trans woman was played by Jenny McCarthy.
Ugly Betty had a sympathetic trans woman character. Once again, the actress playing that character was a cis woman.
Two trans woman characters appeared on Alley McBeal. While mostly sympathetic, both were depicted as other and somewhat freakish.
Futurama had an episode in which Bender transition into Coilette to compete in the robot olympics. What initially looks to be a ‘trans woman atheletes are really men’ story, it becomes a thoughtful exploration of gender identity. SPOILER The robot in question eventually struggles with whether they are really the male Bender or the female Coilette.
In a shockingly thoughtful episode of American Dad, Steve dresses as a girl to join a roller derby team. It is revealed that the other members of the team have known all along that their new team mate has a penis. They just thought she was a trans lesbian. After some serious thought and questioning, Steve comes to the conclusion that he is indeed a boy.
The reality show There’s Something About Miriam never aired in the US. A group of hot men compete for the love of the hot woman, Miriam, What the audience knows and the hot men don’t is that Miriam is a pre op trans woman. Miriam you stupid bitch. Way to perpetuate the trope that no straight man would ever get involved with a trans woman if he knew she was trans. Way to perpetuate the trope that all trans women are predators looking to ‘trick’ straight men into having sex with them,
I could go on.
This is the idea of tran people that the average American has.