Is Trans fear driven by a fear of being deceived?

Great Debates
41

Not meaning to come down on you in particular, but you’ve touched on a pet peeve of mine.

And that pet peeve is the use of the TERF, or trans-exclusive radical feminist- as a catch-all term for anyone that is transphobic or otherwise anti-trans.

As I understand it (and correct me if I’m wrong), trans-exclusive radical feminists do not believe there are any inherent physiological differences between men and women, and that gender identity is 100% the product of societal programming.

Most transphobics do not adhere to this philosophy, in fact it’s sort of the opposite….they believe very strongly that god and/or nature made men and women very differently, both physically and psychologically, and failure to accept how you were made is not only indicative of a psychological problem but it’s an affront to the natural order of things.

So while the hateful result is the same, it’s driven by a very different philosophy. But I also see that it’s like fighting the tide, because TERF has become a catch-all term for all transphobics. But that doesn’t mean I have to like it.

And as to the OP, I think they have a point. Look at how much conservatives hate plant-based meat……they don’t see anything wrong with vegetables even though meat is an inherently superior food, but it’s really wrong for vegetables to masquerade as meat.

42

This is the first I’ve heard that claim. Wikipedia says the term was invented by a radical feminist as a neutral term to describe the difference between radical feminists who accepted trans women as women, and other radical feminists who didn’t, but that the term has since become more generally used (and attracted negative connotations) to describe anyone who rejects the idea that trans women are women.

And, still going off Wikipedia as a source, it does not say that radical feminists think there are no physiological distinction between the sexes, but that

While radical feminists believe that differences in genitalia and secondary sex characteristics should not matter culturally or politically, they also maintain that women’s special role in reproduction should be recognized and accommodated without penalty in the workplace, and some have argued compensation should be offered for this socially essential work

43

Could I ask for a little clarity on what constitutes “trans fear”? Would any of the following scenarios count?

  1. A woman objects to a transwoman using a women’s public toilet?
  2. A woman objects to a transwoman using a women’s changing room at a sports centre that has a communal shower?
  3. A woman objects to competing against a transwoman in a sporting event with a significant cash prize and/or scholarship prize for first place?
  4. A woman in a women’s prison objects to sharing a cell with a transwoman?

In each instance, assume that the transwoman is pre-op and very early on in their transition. I’m not saying that I believe any of the above scenarios are “trans fear” or aren’t. I’m purely interested in seeing what the general consensus is.

44

I suspect the seeking of things to get upset about is a conditioned response to the accumulation of changes they disapprove of combined with all the bad changes that have occurred and a narrative about the source of morality that is exclusionary.

Abortion was a big one, LGB mainstreaming and rights, and now Transgenderism getting the same visibility and push for acceptance. Divorce rate up, marriage rate down, mixed-race children up, promiscuity promoted and even championed for women, and the call out of “slut shaming”. Children being not only exposed to these “immoral” ideas in media and society via TV shows and even commercials, but in schools and books. The push for secularism and removal of primacy for Christianity in government affairs.

If you start with the premise that these behaviors are wrong, that God is the source of morality, then the source of their outrage is obvious. It’s an intolerance of equal access and treatment for ideas they believe are immoral.

But yes, the triggers are sometimes pretty trivial, e.g. the War on Christmas.

Trans issues are not trivial triggers. They are a direct assault on their own identity, because the adjustment to definitions of gender identity seem like an attack on them.

Just like Gay marriage felt like an assault on the sanctity of their own marriage. That was even less rational than the trans aversion and counter reaction. Trans gets to a very basic source of how we identify people. It’s embedded in languages. People have been addressing the different forms of words for jobs for women versus men. That’s still a challenge that still has vestiges, like “actress”.

But the biggest driver of reactionary response isn’t the personal moral affront anyone feels. It’s the right-wing media focus on highlighting and ridiculing and festering on the issues and has been for 30+ years. Their siloed subculture reflecting and reinforcing the attitude of being under assault for their “normal” ideas.

I call it Persecution Syndrome.

45

I forgot to even address this comment I dropped. Examples are proliferation of mass shooting, spread of use and access to drugs like molly and pot, and the fentanyl crisis. I’m sure there are others.

46

I think it depends where they are coming from. For instance, i think the issue in public showers and changing areas is mostly one of modesty, not of fear of assault. Is that trans fear? I think it’s “trans erasing”, not trans fear.

But what if you’ve been in none of those situations, and didn’t anticipate being in any of them, and are very very concerned they might happen to someone else? I think that ventures into trans fear.

Fwiw, I’ve shared restrooms and public changing areas with trans women, and also shared a hotel room with one. But I’ve also shared hotel rooms with men. I’ve never had an issue, because everyone has been polite.

47

As a man, I’ve never been comfortable with common showers or changing rooms. Culturally we have moved away from that, though changing areas are still prevalent.

From that standpoint, not wanting to share personal space (i.e. nudity) with a transwoman could just be modesty, but if the person is okay with shared spaces just not with transwomen, that could be trans fear. It’s a vague situation where people have different comfort levels with their own nudity, or seeing other people’s nudity.

I get that there are different perceptions people have based upon appearances. I think I’m unconformable with some scenarios, especially if the person has made little to no attempts at visible affectation to reflect their stated identity. A dude with a beard going into the ladies’ room is unnerving, whatever they say.

Public restrooms have stalls, so privacy is much less of a concern. Shared changing/ showers starts to get more personal space, and living in a prison cell is even more personal space. Of course, prisoners don’t usually get a vote on who they share a cell, do they?

The closest to a legitimate issue to me is the sports one. I admit I have trouble sorting that one out. I think sports orgs have tried to find some reasonable rules to keep the playing field fair, but “reasonable” is in the eye of the beholder, and the success of any particular sport organization at being reasonable varies.

I don’t want to hijack on that topic. It’s something I’m trying to sort out for myself, so this isn’t the thread to engage it. I’m just sharing my opinion, as asked.

I’ve shared a hotel room with an unrelated nonromantic woman friend. She had no problem with me being there. I think how well you personally know someone would affect that situation. Random stranger or friend of a friend would be more invasive, trans or not.

I have shared hotel rooms with men I barely knew. I wasn’t worried in any of those situations, but it was my choice to accept our decline.

I suppose the most awkward might have been when I was a senior in high school and went on a group trip, I shared a double bed with a teacher. He was also rather effeminate, and was fairly open with us students about sexuality and his own flexibility, and was a poor chaperone but a great wingman, but again there were no issues. I didn’t feel unsafe. But I’m also male.

48

Which is exactly what’s going to happen if trans people are required to use the restrooms coded for the gender they were assigned at birth.

49

Yes, trans men are often completely left out of these conversations.

50

Radical feminists (trans exclusionary or not) definitely believe in physiological differences between men and women. What some of them don’t believe in is the idea that there’s any inherent psychological difference between men and women. A man “feeling like a woman” isn’t a coherent concept under this framework, because there’s no such thing as “feeling like a woman.” A trans woman is, at best, just a man who likes wearing dresses.

However, it’s worth noting that genuine TERFs are a minority within a minority, and one that’s just chock full of crazy - “unmedicated schizophrenic” is a more reliable commonality among actual TERFs than any description of their philosophy.

I do share your pet peeve with the term terf being stretched to include any transphobic person. I try to reserve it for people who oppose trans rights specifically on feminist grounds, as distinct from, say, evangelical Christian grounds. JK Rowling is a terf. Nancy Mace is not. Both are transphobes.

51

I would say 1, 2, and 4 are at minimum based on fear. Modesty doesn’t make sense as an explanation for 2, because apparently you’re fine with all the cisgender women seeing you naked (even if they are attracted to you).*

Transphobes themselves present these scenarios with fear-based objections. The ones trying to seem more presentable will say they fear is of men faking it, not actual trans women**, but they all seem to agree that the issue is that there’s a man in a woman’s space who could harm them.

3 is possibly about ignorance, not knowing that trans women do not statistically fare better than cisgender women in sports, or that they won’t be allowed “very early on” to compete–they’d need 2 years on HRT. However, the fearmongers have made this also a fear based thing, like claiming the “man” will destroy the woman because he’s so strong. But some will just complain it is unfair.

*trans women are possibly much more likely to be attracted to women than cisgender women. The numbers of straight, lesbian, and bisexual trans women are roughly equal in studies. No, we don’t know why.

**note the spelling. the space is generally only omitted by those who do not consider trans women to be a type of woman. Trans is not a prefix, but an shortening of transgender.
52

…this isn’t the correct definition, but I think of TERF’s as transphobes of British variety. They almost exclusively turn up on NZ Twitter at about 1AM in the morning pretending to be local accounts and will swarm the feed du jour, then disappear just as New Zealanders start to wake up, leaving hundreds of shit-posts in their wake and most kiwi’s wondering WTF just happened.

Occasionally one will stumble onto NZ Twitter in the wrong timezone and find themselves isolated and on the backfoot.

And yeah, a NZ data scientist did a quantitative study, and almost all of the anti-trans Twitter posts on NZ feeds came from the UK in 2022. There was a nastiness and a visceral hate that comes with being a TERF that you don’t get with the garden-variety transphobe.

53

Whoops….typo….i meant to say psychological.

54

I think that trans men don’t trigger the Right as much because they fit into the worldview of toxic masculinity; of course a woman would want to be a man, men are superior. The modern version of Freud and his ideas about “penis envy”.

But “a man who wants to be a woman” (which is how they’d characterize it) violates that worldview. It directly implies that womanhood is somehow desirable, instead of inferior and vile. The existence of such a person makes no sense in the toxic masculinity paradigm.

55

I’m sorry, I was trying to use the term as it was specifically applied to one of our posters here who per my understanding was a TERF in the very direct sense, but this NOT being the Pit, didn’t want to bring up any more details than that. Otherwise, I was not intending in any way to use that term as a catch-all, but rather as a distinct example of other groups that did not fit (IMHO) the OP’s premise as originally was outlined.

That said, I am not a part of that group (in the literal or extended sense) and fully acknowledge that @Miller and others may have a wider and fully understanding of the groups, subgroups, and so forth that fall under different interpretations. My comments are further informed by the often toxic commentary on certain media I follow, which are chock full of harmful (IMHO) tropes on hyper masculine male phenotypes with strong female stereotypes in terms of speech and clothing that are almost always played as cheap gags. And any discussion of said characters, by both purported males and females are insulting, but for the different justifications outlined upthread.

Just to address what may be a part of my own bias.

56

I have a trans son (assigned female at birth), been on testosterone for about 4 years, had top surgery 2.5 years ago, and thankfully has done all the legal name and sex documentation already. A couple of things.

  1. The homicide rate of black trans women is horrendously high. Do your own research but this may be supportive of the OP.
  2. At least a non-insignificant amount of the LGB community have a prejudice against the trans community. One would think this would be a sympathetic audience. And that the LGB community should be cognizant that if the trans community is demonized, what group would be next?
  3. For some people, body dysphoria is a debilitating thing. At least for my son, puberty was horrendous and budding breasts was a 5 bell alarm. This went down to 0.5 bell alarm after a week of testosterone, and 0 post-op.
57

Agree with this. I consider myself pro-trans, but my opinion on sports is that it should be up to sporting bodies, advised by doctors, to decide for themselves. I don’t think there should be an automatic right for any trans person to choose which competition to enter, mainly because I don’t think the science of gender transitioning is at the point where it can erase all advantage of having been through puberty with high testosterone.

If this sounds bigoted to some, bear in mind that this is something sporting bodies have to do anyway with intersex. Whether they draw a line in advance, or go on a case-by-case basis, they still may need to deny entry to a competition for some edge cases.

58

I think the primary driver is that it is “unnatural.” Accepting gay people for who they are is one thing. Accepting trans people for who they think they are is another. Other older cultures such as India have found a different way of accepting a third gender. Plus, much of our psychology is misandry, so its not hard to see how we have some support in that community to turn men into women physically. We have not come to terms with the misandry in our industries/institutions because devaluing men is a huge part of the “patriarchy.” Like abortion and existential feminism, these are all problems that are fueled by deeper issues that we don’t want to talk about yet. Most aren’t ready for the ontological shock.

59

I’m baffled at who the various "our"s and "we"s might be in the above post. Everything else is clear enough but who is that poster speaking of or for?

60

There have been many attempts in this thread to explain the reticence some women have to accepting transwomen in women’s spaces. It’s fear, it’s the result of a multi-billion dollar right-wing propaganda campaign, it’s the need for an enemy to fight, etc… To me, these all seem very much like attempts to talk past the most obvious explanation. Maybe these women just…don’t think transwomen are women? If they don’t think transwomen are women then it follows that they think they’re men, and if they think they’re men then they’re not obligated to trust them any more than they would trust any other man they don’t know in those sensitive situations.