Is Trans fear driven by a fear of being deceived?

[Kimstu]

@WalterBishop

Women are right to be wary of us. Women are wise to be wary of us, and we, as a sex, will never, ever stop inundating women with reasons to be justifiably suspicious of us.

Maybe you could improve if you tried harder, though?

It is very common for people living in a heavily entrenched social climate of bigotry and oppression to believe that such injustice is “just the way things are”. That doesn’t make it a valid excuse for denying other people’s basic human rights. Nor does it mean that the current levels of bigotry and oppression are necessarily immutable.

@DemonTree

I think they were hoping that as more trans people came out publicly, it would just naturally become more socially acceptable? The progressive left almost always analogises trans rights to gay rights, and that’s how it worked in that case.

And that’s how it’s been working for trans rights, too. Not universally or monotonically—it didn’t happen that way in the case of gay rights, either—but it’s very true that trans people have become more publicly visible, and consequently more widely accepted.

Many more people nowadays than a quarter-century ago, for example, think that trans people should be able to use the bathroom of their identified rather than birth-assigned gender. Many, many more people nowadays actually know a transgender woman, and accept the idea that transgender women are not actually “dangerous, catcalling rapey men”.

And that cultural shift has been happening even in the face of an all-out transphobic backlash and moral-panic campaign over the past several years, as several posters above have mentioned. (An interesting overview of the anti-trans backlash is described in this recent article “Othering, peaking, populism and moral panics: The reactionary strategies of organised transphobia”.)

[DemonTree]

@DocCathode

Ah, but it DOES work as an analogy. I fully agree that ‘dangerous, catcalling rapey men’ should be kept out of women only spaces. Trans women are not ‘dangerous, catcalling, rapey men’. They are not men at all. Some people, for whatever reason, perceive them as men. That does not make it so.

The point which you missed is that the disagreement is not over whether it’s wrong to describe a group of people as dangerous and exclude them. You just did exactly that in all sincerity, so presumably you don’t think it is bigoted to do so. The fact other people define that group of people slightly differently to you does not necessarily imply they are any more bigoted or unreasonable.

[Kimstu]

@DemonTree

The point which you missed is that the disagreement is not over whether it’s wrong to describe a group of people as dangerous and exclude them. You just did exactly that in all sincerity, so presumably you don’t think it is bigoted to do so. The fact other people define that group of people slightly differently to you does not necessarily imply they are any more bigoted or unreasonable.

I think actually it was you who missed DocCathode’s point. He was agreeing that the specific subset of men who are dangerous, catcalling and rapey should be kept out of women-only spaces.

That’s not the same thing as saying that the reason that men in general are routinely excluded from women-only spaces is because men in general are dangerous, catcalling and rapey.

Yes, I would argue that it is in fact highly bigoted and unreasonable to describe men in general as dangerous, catcalling and rapey, and even more bigoted and unreasonable to make that claim about transgender women in general.

[puzzlegal]

And fwiw, men are routinely allowed in ladies rooms. Most custodians are men, and I’ve routinely had a man with a mop enter a public restroom while i was there, and wait for me to finish before he started mopping.

And once when a guy cut his foot at a dance i was at, there was a nearby ladies room and not a nearby men’s room, so we washed and bandaged his foot in the ladies room.

Even if you think that trans women are a type of man, they are a type of man who needs to use the restroom, and can’t safely use the men’s room. Because of rapey catcally men. And they need a place to pee, just like everyone else. Consider it special circumstance, if that makes it more palatable.

[crowmanyclouds]

Even if one thinks that trans men are women and not a type of man they, very, very often look more ‘’‘male’‘’ than most males and if you’re going to force them to use the restrooms that match their current genitalia then your transphobia is going to normalize ‘’‘men’‘’ being allowed in women-only spaces.

This is, according to that, a woman and there should be no objections, at all, to them using women-only spaces.

But I’ve given up hope that any one that insists that trans people should use the restroom that is the same as gender as assigned at birth is actually going to address the inherit contradiction in that position and how that’s actually going to play out in real life.

[thorny_locust]

@Kimstu

@WalterBishop

Women are right to be wary of us. Women are wise to be wary of us, and we, as a sex, will never, ever stop inundating women with reasons to be justifiably suspicious of us.

Maybe you could improve if you tried harder, though?

This.

I know quite a lot of men who don’t behave like that. This does not of course mean that I can safely assume about any man I don’t know well that he won’t behave like that; but it does indicate that it’s perfectly possible for men to behave better.

And while there’s going to be some percentage of people who behave badly even if the society they live in expects otherwise, and some percentage who behave well even when their society expects them to behave badly, there’s going to be a lot more people behaving badly in any specific fashion if the people they live among expect them to behave badly in that fashion.

[Irishman]

@DocCathode

I respectfully disagree here.

I’m not sure what the disagreement is. If you are talking about my statement it’s not about mating, I was talking about the subconscious perception.

If you are disagreeing with my comment about sorting out who they are attracted to, I would argue that that boy sorted out pretty well that he found Gwen attractive. Again, the context of my remark was with regards to @msmith537 's comment about the mental discomfort when seeing a trans person. I don’t think there is a subconscious effect from perceiving an obvious trans woman as not a potential mate. Men dismiss a lot of women from consideration as a potential mate without a second thought.

The issue with trans assault in a case like Gwen’s is not that the boy wasn’t attracted to Gwen, it was that the boy took Gwen’s trans status as a personal attack on his own identity as a cis-het man. “How could I have thought you were pretty?” It becomes “You tricked me!” combined with “I’ll show you!”

I also takes a mean heart, a very selfish mind, and a tendency to brutality. Your average person when faced with an awkward surprise is dumbfounded, freezes up, and then tries to graciously extract themselves from the situation.

Or maybe that’s just me, from having low self-esteem and an aversion to opening myself to ridicule.

And I will clarify, I have never been in that situation with a trans woman. My awkward situation was publicly asking out a girl who initially agreed, but then realized I was asking her on a date. The way it happened was such a surprise my jaw literally fell open and I just stood there. Finally I was able to mutter some acknowledgement and turn back to my own business.

It was utterly humiliating - one of my worst fears playing out in reality. It absolutely struck me to the core about my own worth. At no time did I want to punch her. I wanted to flee and hide.

And this perhaps is a moment to reflect on how a trans woman feels in this situation. She is just trying to connect, not deliberately trying to embarrass someone. She’s probably a bit humiliated by already having kissed and given oral to then be rejected. I’m sure that’s not pleasant to experience, even without any assault occurring. That seems like a minefield even if there were no risk of violence.

I thoroughly understand why someone might wish to avoid dating altogether.

[DemonTree]

@puzzlegal

And fwiw, men are routinely allowed in ladies rooms. Most custodians are men, and I’ve routinely had a man with a mop enter a public restroom while i was there, and wait for me to finish before he started mopping.

IMO it would really help trans acceptance to start pointing out that most men are harmless and not going to attack women, and that there is nothing inherently dangerous about a man being in the ladies room - provided he has a reason to be there.

I see a lot of left-wing people online affirming the idea that it’s okay for women to exclude all men, be suspicious of or uncomfortable around all men because some men are dangerous. This serves to validate the fears of t*rfs, and of the large segment of the population that doesn’t believe twaw. Conversely, convincing people that men and women are not actually very different would tend to make them more accepting of people switching from one group to the other.

[crowmanyclouds]

I was wondering exactly when Hypothetical Bear was going to show up in the thread.

[Miller]

@WalterBishop

From the point of view of a woman who doesn’t believe transwomen are women, objecting to their inclusion in women’s spaces is the most sensible thing in the world.

Couldn’t you slot literally any bigoted belief into this syllogism and get an equally true outcome?

From the point of view of a person who thinks Black people are inherently mentally inferior, keeping them from attending good schools is the most sensible thing in the world.

From the point of view of a person who thinks gay people invite God’s wrath on the nation, outlawing homosexuality is the most sensible thing in the world.

From the point of view of a person who thinks Jews are sub-humans who deliberately undermine society, rounding them up in camps is the most sensible thing in the world.

Pretty much any bigoted action is justifiable if you assume the bigoted belief underlying it is true.

@WalterBishop

You may think the progressive left has already done this, but that’s laughably untrue. Until the progressive left start putting at least as much effort into arguing why transwomen are women as the right are putting into arguing why they aren’t, then they won’t be doing anywhere near enough.

Can you demonstrate this is untrue? What metrics are you using to prove how much effort “the progressive left” is putting into each type of argument?

[DemonTree]

@Miller

Pretty much any bigoted action is justifiable if you assume the bigoted belief underlying it is true.

There is a huge difference between believing someone is inferior or subhuman and believing they are one of two equally valuable types of human!

[Whack-a-Mole]

@DemonTree

There is a huge difference between believing someone is inferior or subhuman and believing they are one of two equally valuable types of human!

This seems vague.

Can you clarify?

[WalterBishop]

@Miller

From the point of view of a person who thinks Black people are inherently mentally inferior, keeping them from attending good schools is the most sensible thing in the world.

From the point of view of a person who thinks gay people invite God’s wrath on the nation, outlawing homosexuality is the most sensible thing in the world.

From the point of view of a person who thinks Jews are sub-humans who deliberately undermine society, rounding them up in camps is the most sensible thing in the world.

The difference is that there’s no good evidence that black people are mentally inferior to whites, or that Jews are subhumans. Evidence for those propositions does exist, of course, and racists and anti-Semites never stop touting it, but it’s all terrible, slanted, cherry-picked evidence that’s easy to debunk.

The evidence that, as a group, men are dangerous to women is abundant, very high quality, impossible to debunk, and present at every level of society. Obviously, this doesn’t tell you anything about the predilections of any individual man, but that’s beside the point. Women aren’t mind readers. They can’t tell whether a man is from the safe majority or the dangerous minority just by looking. They have a right to assume he’s a threat until proven otherwise, and this is a right women have earned through millennia of (frequently violent) interpersonal and systemic oppression at the hands of men.

Now, from the point of view of a woman who hasn’t been persuaded that transwomen are women, what changes if the “man” in question is trans? Obviously, nothing. She can’t tell if the transwoman is one of the safe majority or the dangerous minority just by looking.

Now, you could argue that this woman’s belief that transwomen are men is bigoted. However - and this is my point - you could equally argue that the left just hasn’t done a very good job of arguing that transwomen are women, so what do you expect her to think?

@Miller

Can you demonstrate this is untrue? What metrics are you using to prove how much effort “the progressive left” is putting into each type of argument?

There’s no metric, per se. However, I think it’s self-evident that the right is putting far more effort into arguing that transwomen are men than the left are putting into arguing that transwomen are women. Would you agree? Because, as far as a I’m concerned, for as long as that’s the case, the left aren’t doing enough.

[crowmanyclouds]

@WalterBishop

They can’t tell whether a man is from the safe majority or the dangerous minority just by looking. They have a right to assume he’s a threat until proven otherwise, and this is a right women have earned through millennia of (frequently violent) interpersonal and systemic oppression at the hands of men.

Which restroom should this person use given all of that?

[WalterBishop]

He looks exactly like a man so he can use the men’s.

[Whack-a-Mole]

@WalterBishop

The evidence that, as a group, men are dangerous to women is abundant, very high quality, impossible to debunk, and present at every level of society.

What is the evidence that transwomen are doing so to perv on women in public bathrooms?

It’s a bullshit argument. How would you perv on women in a bathroom? Try to look through the thin slot on the stall door to see them sitting on a toilet?

It’s probably happened but I suspect it is very rare and next to never done by transwomen.

[crowmanyclouds]

And the cis women that look like just a little too manly, what restroom do they use?

[WalterBishop]

@Whack-a-Mole

What is the evidence that transwomen are doing so to perv on women in public bathrooms?

I’m not talking about transwomen as a group, and I would never ascribe a group motivation to them. I’m speaking from the perspective of a hypothetical woman who just hasn’t been convinced that transwomen are women. This woman would be justified treating the transwoman as posing the same level of danger as any strange man they don’t know.

To reiterate, my point in all this is simply to argue that such a woman needn’t necessarily be a bigot for taking this stance. Her stance could simply be a reflection of the failure of the left to make a strong positive case that transwomen are women.

@Whack-a-Mole

It’s a bullshit argument. How would you perv on women in a bathroom? Try to look through the thin slot on the stall door to see them sitting on a toilet?

Uh, yeah. I guess that’s one way. There are many others and you don’t need to be imaginative to figure them out.

[WalterBishop]

@crowmanyclouds

And the cis women that look like just a little too manly, what restroom do they use?

They use the women’s toilets.

Now, here’s a question for you and I’m not going to answer any more of your questions until you answer this one:

Do you believe that we should abolish single sex spaces altogether, and just have communal toilets and communal locker rooms that all men and women can use? If not, why not?

[Whack-a-Mole]

@WalterBishop

I’m speaking from the perspective of a hypothetical woman who just hasn’t been convinced that transwomen are women. This woman would be justified treating the transwoman as posing the same level of danger as any strange man they don’t know.

An example:

Go to the Steppenwolf Theater in Chicago to see a play (it’s well regarded and while not big it is not small either). All bathrooms are unisex. And one big bathroom at that. Everyone uses a stall. Men and women in the same room.

It all works out fine. No problems.