Do you know what material consequences are? Rarely do I see someone expounding socially conservative ideology admit his ideology is bigoted. I can only assume you don’t realize what it is you’ve effectively said here. If “the left” has “won” toleration of race and sexual orientation and is fighting for toleration of transpeople, a material consequence is that another group has been wielding bigotry against these folks. It seems unreasonable to infer the identity of that other group as any other than “the right”. It’s just amazing how it’s all right here in a single post. You’ve got the epitome of prejudice and intolerance in the first paragraph and the next sentence and then an apparent admission, by material consequence, that this ideology is bigoted.
Well, see, here’s the deal with our friend DerekMichaels00. Apparently he’s really short, so he’s never been able to get a “hot girl”, and is stuck with “fat ones”. Now he’s afraid he’ll be forced to date trans girls. Because reasons.
Knock it off.
Views on sexuality are not indiscriminately transferable from one topic to another and dragging up old IMHO threads are not relevant to this discussion.
Leave the personal comments out of the thread.
[ /Moderating ]
Actually, who cares?
By that I mean, does it really harm others? Most of the harm that does occur for LGBT is not from their preferences,/proclivities or whatever you decide to diagnose. It comes from a lack of acceptance from others.
In other words, if society itself were more cool about these things there really would not be an issue at all, we would not diagnose mental health issues by gender or sexual preferences, instead we might, y’know, look at the individuals actual mental health, instead of all the other nonsense that society seems to be so worried about.
Loosen up, but its hard to let go of all your ingrained perceptions isn’t it?
Who is this directed to?
People who are born intersexed or with ambiguous genitalia have obviously had something go wrong during fetal development. This is as much a physical condition as being born deaf or with an extra finger or some other abnormality, none of which are a mental health issue. The abnormalities can be both external and internal. The parent of these babies are often told “we’ll cut this off/change that, and then go home and raise them as a girl/boy”. As these children grow, what’s between their legs doesn’t always match the gender they actually are. This is because it doesn’t matter what’s between a person’s legs that makes them male or female, it’s something that comes from the brain.
If this can happen with external abnormalities that we can see, I have no trouble accepting that this can happen without the external abnormalities as evidence that something went wrong during fetal development.
I do not believe at all that transgender is a mental health issue.
This is my purely unscientific opinion but a way that I’ve used to talk to anti-trans people.
Is transexuality a mental illness? No, but thinking that transexuality a mental illness is a mental illness.
That’s the mental illness of imagining that there are absolute standards of right and wrong in sexual preferences, and that you are absolutely right, and everyone who thinks differently or wants to live their life differently is wrong.
This post demonstrates incredible ignorance of the subject, and considering how often these misconceptions have been corrected on this board (why do you still believe that gender identity has anything to do with sexual preference?), it appears the ignorance is uncorrectable, unfortunately.
Ok, who here, other than one notable exception, has asserted this??
So what if it IS a mental illness?
In fact, I would say that feeling as though you are in the wrong gendered body would make you unwell mentally, so, almost be definition, it is.
Fortunately, medical science has given us treatment, allowing one’s body to better match their mental expectations, rather than the past practices of trying to force the mind to accept the body.
Society needs some work to catch up in places.
I’m not clear on the distinction that’s being drawn.
As the links in the OP provide, some people who have a self-image of the functionality of particular body parts that doesn’t match the outward appearance of that functionality are diagnosed with BIID because of the psychological distress associated with that disjunction. Not all of them, but some.
As the links in the OP also provide, some people who have a self-image of their own gender identity that doesn’t match the outward appearance of their gender are diagnosed with gender dysphoria because of the psychological distress associated with that disjunction. Again, not all, but some. Gender dysphoria, actually, is recognized in the DSM5 and BIID isn’t.
So what needs an explanation?
I think there’s a distinction here that’s worth maintaining. If you’re in an accident, and lose both legs, you’re almost certainly going to have struggles with depression and anxiety as you recover. That doesn’t mean that not having any legs is a mental illness. Similarly, if you’re transgendered in this society, you’re going to face a lot of prejudice and even open violence, that can very easily lead to depression and anxiety and other mental health issues. But that doesn’t mean being transgendered itself a mental illness.
Quite a devious plot.
Even if this were true, (it is really nonsense), what sort of stigma do you think we should continue to impose on homosexuality?
This does not even make sense. How does being treated as someone of a different gender affect one’s sexual orientation?
This might have made some sense if it did not turn history upside down. The few places that had passed anti-discrimination laws had done so relatively quietly. It became a cause celebre only because some loud idiots on the Far Right began screaming about it and passing discriminatory laws to enforce prejudice and hatred using really stupid explanations to support their laws.
“A mental illness is a condition that affects a person’s thinking, feeling or mood.”
Somewhat surprisingly, nobody has linked to the Cecil Adams column on the topic yet:
Dear Cecil:
In a recent Straight Dope Message Board thread about transsexuality, one commenter offered the following: “People who have gender identity disorders … are just dudes dressing up as chicks and/or dudes who have gotten a doctor to mutilate them to have imitation female genitalia (or [the other way around for women], I guess.) … GID patients have a mental illness and society should be looking into ways to eradicate that mental illness through some form of treatment that isn’t the equivalent of giving a paranoid schizophrenic who thinks he’s Napoleon a bicorn hat and a saber.” Care to comment?
— Startled Lurker
Cecil replies:
I’m not inviting that guy to the next meeting of my LGBT support group. However, from a certain perspective, he’s got a point.
Standard medical opinion is that transsexuals are mentally ill. The revised fourth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders offers a long description of gender identity disorder that boils down to this: you think you’re the wrong sex, and you’re not happy about it. The International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems calls it transsexualism and defines it this way: “A desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by a sense of discomfort with, or inappropriateness of, one’s anatomic sex, and a wish to make his or her body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatment.”
Fact is, most transsexuals agree there’s something wrong with them. The difference is they think it’s with their bodies, while unsympathetic outsiders say it’s with their heads.
It’s not so clear cut. Especially among children with a Gender Identity Disorder, the research shows that many will eventually cease having the disorder and will mentally identify with their anatomical gender. This study summarizes previous research:
Interestingly, the prospective literature on gender dysphoric children shows that gender dysphoria in childhood does not irrevocably result in gender dysphoria or GID in adolescence and adulthood. Feelings of gender dysphoria persisted into adolescence in only 39 out of 246 of the children (15.8%) who were investigated in a number of prospective follow-up studies (Bakwin, 1968; Davenport, 1986; Drummond, Bradley, Peterson-Badali & Zucker, 2008; Green, 1987; Kosky, 1987; Lebovitz, 1972; Money & Ruso, 1979; Wallien & Cohen-Kettenis, 2008; Zucker & Bradley, 1995; Zuger, 1984). Although the persistence rates differed between the various studies (2% to 27%), the results unequivocally showed that the gender dysphoria remitted after puberty in the vast majority of children.
So at least in the case of children, it would not be the case that altering the body is the one and only right treatment. When encountering a child with gender dysphoria, the likelihood is strongly in favor of the condition remitting.
Oh, yeah, that study.
Which would be why they don’t alter the bodies of children. If they reach the age of normal puberty, they may receive puberty-delaying hormones, but by the time any surgery is done, they, their parents, and their doctors will have been consistently convinced that that’s the right course of action for longer than most people spend going to college.
That is not a fair encapsulation of that column. And the column isn’t responsive to the question here.
That is some startlingly bad science!
For starters, the most cited study (Steensma) which alleges a 84 percent desistance rate, did not actually differentiate between children with consistent, persistent and insistent gender dysphoria, kids who socially transitioned, and kids who just acted more masculine or feminine than their birth sex and culture allowed for. In other words, it treated gender non-conformance the same as gender dysphoria. Worse, the study could not locate 45.3 percent of the children for follow up, and made the assumption that all of them were desisters. Indeed, other studies used to support this also suffered from similar methodological flaws.