I find the whole transgenered thing to be fascinating, because in my book the whole “transgendered” identification - being wholly convinced that one is a different sex that one’s physical body, which is what determines one’s sex - is directly commensurate with mental illness. I know this might sound a little spicy, but I see no difference between someone saying, “while I am physically a man, I’ve felt that I was a woman since I was a child and I think of myself as a woman even though I have a penis and no breasts” and someone saying, “I’ve thought that I was a dog since I was a child, and I insist on eating Alpo out of a dog bowl, being walked on a leash, and peeing on fire hydrants.” There is *no * difference between those two things in my opinion, yet the first is a protected class that’s managed to somehow become allied with the gays and lesbians and the second would be placed in a mental hospital.
Especially since people who are transgendered insist that their state isn’t some choice or decision, but “how they’ve always felt,” isn’t that even more commensurate with mental illness? The whole acceptance thing there has always baffled me.
At what point do we draw the line? Does Schizophrenia become “trans-realitied?” Does bipolar disorder become “trans-moodified?” It’s just baffling.
It goes into how we define normal behavior, outside of rules handed down by God or ‘gods’ we have no higher authority then man to find out what is ‘normal operating conditions’ and what is outside that range. We tend to draw lines where we can have a functioning society and to help where we can. Many people would say homosexual tendancies also fall outside this, some would say that interracial marriage would be, some would say body piercing or tatooing would be, others saying eating meat would be.
I also think people sometimes personalize it, sayign what would I like people to do if I think I’m a dog - the natural reaction is to do whatever it takes to deliver them from that, when it comes to situations where people are still identifying as human that thought process seems a bit blurry.
AFAIK the physical body doesn’t always make such a clear distinction as you claim. But I don’t know enough about that to discuss it.
Someone who’s really convinced he’s a dog and acts like it won’t be able to function in human society, while someone who acts like a woman or a a man obviously should be. In other words, if it is a mental disorder, it’s one that can be coped with.
Also, IMO gender is pretty closely tied to one’s identity, so if we want to “solve” the problem for someone, should we change their personality or their outward appearance? This is probably a question of about ethics, not strictly medicine.
It depends on what you mean by “acceptance.” You don’t have to sleep with them. A male-to-female transsexual asks only that you address and treat him/her as a woman in social relations, and that you do not discriminate against transsexuals in employment (e.g., as happened to Steven/Susan Stanton.) The first is only a matter of courtesy; the second is simply an acknowledgment of the fairly obvious fact that transsexuality, even if you regard it as a “mental illness” ipso facto, does not necessarily imply irrationality or incompetence in nonsexual areas of life and work. (A delusion that you are a dog, OTOH, probably does imply that.) Is either too much to ask?
There’s more dimensions to human sexuality and identity than just external genitalia.
“Mental illness” is a charged term. If you define it simply as the extremes of the bell curve of behavior, then anything could be a mental illness depending on how you label your graph. Sometimes those extremes are labeled in a positive way - “genius”, “medicine man”, etc. Usually it’s a culturally dependent and therefore it’s hard to make absolute judgments about it. I would say if a certain behavior fulfills a person without causing too much strain on the other people in their environment then there’s no problem with it.
Okay, let’s say it is a mental illness*. Does that mean it’s wrong to treat the problem physically, if that’s what works? What difference does it make?
Where do we draw the line? It thought it was where you’re not hurting yourself or others. Was I wrong?
*I am NOT, for the record, saying that transgenderism is a mental illness. Isn’t it more neurological than pscyhological?
Schizophrenia and Bipolar are both mental illnesses that cause or can cause psychotic breaks from reality.
The DSM-IV categorizes transgender as a psychosexual/ gender identity disorder not a psychotic or mood disorder. Transgender is considered outside the realm of normal behavior. The DSM- IV doesn’t equate to moral judgment. At least, it shouldn’t.
It doesn’t baffle me. I think you hit the nail on the head. It is a mental disease, but it has been linked with the homosexual community to add legitimacy to both of their causes.
We had it right before. Transgendered and homosexuals have a mental illness. I’m not saying that they should be locked up, but the synapses aren’t firing right up there…
But it ISN’T the body that determines gender. It’s the mind, or rather the brain. Stick my brain in a genderless robot body and I’d be a human male mind in a robot body, not genderless.
It’s not the same. First, because the second person obviously isn’t a dog in a human body, or he wouldn’t be telling us that he thought he was. Second, because having a dog-mind is not within the healthy range of human variation; being a man or woman is. And third, because being a man or woman is a perfectly sensible desire, whereas being an animal isn’t.
It would be a mental illness if they believed they had ovaries when they didn’t, but they don’t. They believe that they have a mismatched body and brain, which as I understand it appears to be the truth. And unlike insanity, they benefit from having their desires indulged, become happier and more stable; telling someone who thinks he’s Napoleon that he really IS Napoleon would have the opposite effect.
No, because such people aren’t as functional as healthy people. And because helping them involves eliminating what makes them different, whereas helping the transgendered involves giving them what they want.
Aside from the peeing on fire hydrants part (public urination being illegal, and all) none of the behaviors you’ve attributed to your would-be-canine would land one in an institution. People get institutionalized when their behavior presents an obvious threat to themselves or others. Someone who thinks they’re a dog isn’t likely to fall into that category, unless they insist on biting the mailman when he shows up at their door.
That aside, transexuality is definitly an illness, no question about that. But is it a mental illness, or a physical illness? There’s growing evidence that transexualism has at its root a physical cause. Autopsies of male-to-female transexuals reveal that their brains contain structures similiar to those in the brains of natal women. Quite literally, they have the mind of a woman trapped in the body of a man. The research is not yet conclusive, but it does indicate that transexuals do not suffer from a mental illness so much as an extreme birth defect. The issue is further supported by the surprising number of people who are born intersexed: they have some physical characteristic from both genders. Sometimes, these characteristics are not externally expressed, such as a person who is externally female in all respects, but has undescended gonads in her pelvis. If such a person is unaware of her condition, but nonetheless feels ill at ease with her conventional gender, is she mentally ill? Or is there a further physiological cause for her sense of gender which is, like her extra genitalia, not outwardly obvious to the eye?
But let’s leave that aside, and address the concept of transexualism as mental illness as a given. Let’s start by clearing up a common misconception: a transexual is not delusional. They are very much aware of the reality of their situation. They know they have a penis. They know they don’t have breasts. They just would prefer to have a tits and a vagina. Transexualism refers to an internal desire, not an external reality. As such, by definition, it cannot be delusional.
Of course, one can be mentally ill and not be delusional, so that doesn’t necessarily dispose of the “transexuals = mentally ill” argument. But as Guinastasia points out, so what if it is a mental illness? Gender dysphoria, in its most extreme expressions, is virtually immune to psychological treatment. It’s not something that can be cured through therapy or medication. The most effective treatment we’ve found so far for these cases is gender reassignment surgery. The end goal of any sort of medical treatment is always the health and happiness of the patient. If the options for a transexual are remaining in their birth sex, and being miserable and depressed, or transitioning through hormones and surgery and being happy as their preferred gender, is that not the best course of action for that person?
If I have a penis, I am male. If I have a vagina, I am female. What kind of convaluted nonsense gives you the idea that if I “think” I am a female, yet I have a penis, that I am somehow female?
If I “think” I am a parking meter, does that make it so?
But it does come into play when gays, lesbians, or transgendered want to adopt children. While just being a general loon won’t get you locked up, these people INSIST that their lifestyle is so normal that they shouldn’t be prevented from getting married or adopting children.
Now, I can agree that nobody should be locked up for any type of silly behavior, such a lifestyle could indeed be considered “harm” or a “threat” to innocent children…
I strongly challenge the assumption that a person who thinks he’s a dog should be, or would be, placed in a mental hospital unless he is certifiably a danger to himself and others. I would also add that although it may make no sense to me to think of oneself as “fundamentally” different in gender from one’s physical sex, it also makes no sense to me to imagine oneself as being in frequent mental contact with a supernatural being, yet millions of people in my country believe this and are not considered mentally ill.
I suspect that the existence of transgendered people is partly due to the persistence of traditional gender roles, which often have no particular connection to the biological realities of sex. Some people, as children, feel that their personality is so out of line with what society expects from their sex that they would rather adopt the opposite sex. In another culture the same brain might not be transgendered.
The more I hear and think about these issues, the more I am convinced that the belief in only two genders is not adequate to explain the variety of sexual behaviors and preferences out there. Two physical sexes? Maybe. But male and female (and perhaps gay and straight) doesn’t seem to cover all the options.
So what are the OP and jtgain saying, exactly? ‘These behaviors are weird, why do we have to tolerate them?’ Why shouldn’t they be tolerated? Is there some reason I don’t know about? We lose nothing as a society by accomodating people who are TG or gay, with the exception of certain kinds of discrimination.
ok, your first question: Of course I would still be a male if I were castrated in a terrible accident. I didn’t grow a vagina in that accident, and although I lost my sexual organs, I still was born with them.
It wouldn’t make me any less human if I lost an arm or a leg, so I don’t understand the question.
Second question: You admit that a transgendered person is suffering from a mental illness, but you say that a person cannot be locked up unless they present a threat to others…
Well, a young impressionable child who listens to insane (by your definition) teachings about gender roles would qualify as a harm…Should it not? Or should insane people be allowed to spew general craziness to children?