Is "Tu" used more often in French than it used to be?

The first time I ever saw a Francois Truffaut film, I kept wondering to myself why people that obviously knew each other fairly well were using vous when they spoke to each other.

Now I have to admit, though I think I speak/understand French pretty well, I still have trouble knowing when exactly I can tutoyer, but it seems odd to me, as I see more and more films from the sixties and seventies, that people seem to use almost always vous.

Is there something cinematic/literary that I’m not getting, or has only been recently that people are much more lax with their use of tu?

It also surprises me, along the same lines, that in the Bible, God is refered to as Tu, right?

Your relationship with God is very personal so you have to use “Tu”. I think this goes for every language that has a formal and informal you, including middle english, German, Russian and French. God is always informal.

Be advised that I’m basing my answer on Russian, not French, but the formalities should be roughly the same. In Russia it has traditionally been an upper society behavior to avoid the familiar form entirely when speaking to each other. Even a parent addressing their 5 year old child would use the formal form. The informal form was reserved for addressing the lower social classes. As the aristocratic feel has faded in most countries (especially Russia :slight_smile: ) lately, people who are comfortable with each other just switch to the informal form to appear more approachable and down-to-earth. When I was growing up about 2/3rds of my teachers addressed me using the familiar (although I had to address them using the formal back).

If you are American, I would suggest the following rule: If you would be comfortable addressing the person with “dude”, “jennifer, baby” or “hey, asshole” you can use the informal, otherwise it’s not going to be weird to use the formal (even if not strictly necessary in all cases).

Short answer - yes.

Along with the “anglo-saxon” custom of using first names in the work context, the use if “tu” has also become more popular. I have often asked students (adults in full time employment needing English for work) abut this and have been told that in some companies it is even an official policy to use “tu” now. They are not all happy with this btw.

The younger generation is more likely to use “tu” with a new acquaintance without asking permission than people over forty or fifty. In some immigrant/Antillais/Réunionais communities the use of “vous” is almost unheard.

TV and films are different however, a last bastion of ‘proper French’ if you will. It’s not just the older stuff, you can see caracters calling each other “vous” in the dubbed version of English language prgrammes or films where to my mind “tu” is more appropriate (off the top of my head I think the characters in Friends "vousvoy"ed each other even!).

The informal you form is used when addressing God in most European languages where there is a distinction.

To add to the God thing, in the KJV (and probably every other English Bible) God is addressed as “thou”. While this sounds formal to modern ears it’s actually the informal form of “you”, the formal one being, well, “you”, used like “vous” to address groups of people or one important person. Thou has since died but some groups (was it the Quakers?) still use it.

Regarding God, the switch from “vous” to “tu” is relatively recent. I suspect it dates back from the 60s, following Vatican II. As a little kid, I learnt from my parents “Notre pere qui ETES aux cieux, que VOTRE nom…” but when I joined sunday school, I was taught to say “Notre pere qui ES aux cieux, que TON nom…”

And yes, “tu” is more and more often used. For instance my grand-mother, though of modest origin, used “vous” when adressing her father. What you see in movies reflect quite correctly the evolution, as far as I can tell. As for most other things, a major change seems to have happened in the younger generation in the late 60s - early 70s. Nowadays, most people would use “tu” for an acquaintance, at least if there’s no great age difference. Older people tend to use more often “vous”, not only because they’ve been brought up with different habbits, but also because for some reason, they seem to use it more often as they age (me included). Also, “tu” tends to be used more liberaly by urbanites than by rural people. But honestly, I can’t really give a general rule.

You should give up any hope to know when exactly you should use “tu” and “vous”. Of course, there surely are “miss manners” rules, but mostly nobody is going to follow them. It’s based on a random mix of factors like familiarity, setting, age and relative age, personnal taste, local customs and whatnot. Even in the same situation, different people will make different relatively arbitrary choices. For instance, in my workplace :

-With the boss of the boss of my boss, I would use “vous” and Monsieur Familyname

-With the boss of my boss, I would use “vous” and his first name.

-With my boss and all my coworkers bare one I would use “tu” and Firstname.

-One of my coworkers, with whom I had cordial relations, still got “vous” and firstname for some reason. We both enjoyed the distance it created, I suppose.

-One of my subordinates wasn’t previously a coworker, and used “vous”.

Of course, this could be different for another colleague, and even more so in another workplace.

I tend to say “tu” to a stranger significantly younger than me (say, when asked directions), but significantly more often so when they’re males than when they’re females. There are some vague acquaintances with whom I switch back and forth from “vous” to “tu”. I sometimes deliberatly refused to switch to “tu” because I disliked the person. I might use “tu” with someone I just met in a cafe, while I use “vous” for all my neighbors, even those I’ve known for years. Some teachers will adress 11 yo with “vous” and others will use “tu” with undergraduates. And so on… If I stopped to think about it, I could probably analyze the reasons why, but I don’t.
Besides the obvious cases, like friends or at the contrary a random elderly stranger, there’s a lot of wiggle room. You can even “play” with it. For instance, I used “vous” with a girl I was interested in for a long time though we met each other quite frequently, and were on friendly terms, because I liked it this way. I deliberatly switched to “tu” on our first actual date. At Truffaut time, not only it wouldn’t have been a quaint game, but I suspect that the “tu” would have had to wait until after the first kiss or the first night, and in 1920 it might not have been used even after the marriage.
Basically, do as you feel like. Many foreigners try to understand the “rules” but actually there aren’t clear rules, and even frenchmen like me sometimes are hesitant. It often comes naturally, but not always. Given the evolution over the years, I suspect “vous” might become rarer and rarer in the future, but I somehow regret it. Not fun.
On the internet, you might have noticed that “tu” is almost universally used in chatrooms, while “vous” tends to be used frequently on message boards, at least when adults are posting.

Using tu reciprocally is becoming more common in French, Spanish, and probably most languages that have a formal/informal distinction. There’s a famous paper called The Pronouns of Power and Solidarity (Brown and Gilman, 1972) that addresses the issue; basically, the traditional use of tu and vous is complementary - one party addresses the other as tu and is addressed as vous in return. Obviously this suggests that one party has higher social status than the other. Using tu all around implies that everyone’s equal, and it suggests solidarity amongst the speakers, since obviously tu is less formal and distant. Social status of the sort that was recognized via the use of vous is becoming unpopular in most of the world today. As a result, use of vous to recognize your social “better” is particularly becoming uncommon, while using it to, say, show respect for an elderly person is not disappearing quite so rapidly.

I sometimes paid attention to this, indeed, and wondered on what basis people writing the french texts were picking “tu” or “vous” for english movies. Sometimes the characters even switch from “vous” to “tu” during the movie, when they become more familiar with each other.
For the record, I personnally perceive the english “you” as closer to “vous” than to “tu”. I mean that I feel I’m rather “vouvoying” people when I speak english.

That’s one of the most important lessons I’ve learned living abroad and learning a language. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve said something that was taught over and over and over in my langauges classes as a kid just to have French people smile and say, “Did you just say ‘bon marché’? We don’t say that anymore.”

It took me the longest time to understand that the zippy “jaypah” I always heard was actually “Je ne sais pas.” I don’t understand why foreign langauge classes in the US focus so much on grammar and vocab, when they should be teaching how to actually use the language*

*it might have a little to do with the fact that nearly 80% of our schools “focus on giving introductory exposure to a language rather than achieving overall proficiency”…

Clairobscur, do you ever find yourself asking people, “On peut se tutoyer?” Or do you just make a leap of faith and go for it?

Leap of faith, or more commonly it just comes naturally. I don’t think I ever asked “on peut se tutoyer?”. I find this very awkward. I’ve sometimes been asked this question, but it has been very rare.

As a follow-up, I should ask whether anyone has ever objected, or acted offended, when you said “tu” to them.

As far as I remember, no. But I assume it could have been possible, had I used “tu” in very innapropriate circomstances. I would expect a recruiter to be weirded out if I used “tu” during an interview for a job, for instance.
However, some people ostensibly went on using “vous” after I tried a “tu”.

I did notice one more phenomenon in France: people are really good at avoiding using either ‘tu’ or ‘vous’ if it’s not obvious which to use. I would always lose at this game - it’s like the one where you have to make someone say “yes” or “no” (but any other response is OK):

-Salut, comment va?
-Bien…alors, des projets pour le week-end?
-Non, pas trop, le chef veut que je vienne demain pour bosser
-Aie, c’est pas sympa…
-Oui, parait qu’on doive mettre des pages couvertures sur les rapports TPS…

etc. etc.

I always ended up taking a swing at the ball and missing - using “vous” or “tu” and thus forcing this “Heisenberg’s pronoun” into one of its states.

NOTE: I’m watching Friends in French right now, and they’re using “tu” (it just started though).

Also note that the usage of “tu” vs “vous” might vary between the different dialects of French. I’ve always heard that people here in Quebec use “tu” a lot more than people in other French-speaking countries. Just recently, I found this radio program from Radio-Canada (French version of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation). I didn’t listen to the recording, but reading the abstract (which is what my link leads to) leads me to believe that the thesis of the journalist is indeed that “tu” is used more commonly here than in other places.

But I also see that clairobscur says that in France, the trend is also towards using “tu” more than before, so maybe this phenomenon is found in most French-speaking countries.

As for me, I tend to use “vous” more than most people I know. I’ve used it with my thesis director for a long time, and my girlfriend recently told me that it bothered her that I used it when I first me her. At the time, she was a student of mine, and I usually use “vous” with my students, at least at first.

Call me obsessionel, but I have another question for clairobscur – do you ever encounter any married couples with that high-bourgeois/aristocratic affectation of using “vous” with each other in public (or maybe even in private)?

I recall my 50-ish Québecois boss mentioning to me how annoyed she had been the previous day that a bank teller had presumed to tutoyer her without permission. This was about 20 years ago. My current 30-ish Québecois boss would probably not even have noticed.

Never. But then again, I don’t belong to this social category. So they might exist.

Then, there must really be a difference between Quebec and France, because I would be astonished if a bank teller did that here.