Is your car's computer spying on you?

Saw this story on Techdirt a few days ago, referencing an earlier story from the NYTimes.

Short version:

Automobiles get more and more computerized every year, from entertainment systems to navigation technology.

It’s to the point now that when you buy a car, you need to accept a complex software EULA, same as when you install Photoshop or activate an iPhone or whatever. And just as most people scroll down and click OK without reading the terms of service, car buyers are doing the same.

By doing this, the car’s owner is unaware they may be agreeing that any data the car collects — say, from the navigation system — can be shared with third parties.

Turns out, in the case of GM at least, they’re sending driver data to a broker, which then passes information on driver behavior to insurance companies. The insurance companies crunch the data to identify drivers whose habits are statistically associated with a higher claim rate (say, speeding, or regular hard braking), and then those drivers’ insurance rates are increased without explanation.

Eventually consumer advocates start to suspect something like this is happening, investigation and news coverage follows, and outraged kerfuffle erupts.

Personally, I have no problem with shitty drivers paying higher insurance rates. Before the availability of data like this, the only way to identify a shitty driver was after-the-fact. At best, the insurance company flags them after a couple of speeding tickets. At worst, it’s after an actual crash, resulting in damage and potentially injury or death. Now, though, the car is recording everything you do, and it becomes technically possible to look over your shoulder and recognize if you’re more likely to be a problem relative to other drivers. I am a very safe and responsible driver, and I’m irritated when I see jackwagons tearing around on the public roads, following too closely, failing to use signals, and otherwise making themselves a hazard. I used to wish there was a way to tag those people to call some sort of attention to them and disincentivize their selfish behavior. Now, there is.

However, I’m not a fan of this kind of sneaky, underhanded corporate behavior, which is about protecting profits and increasing margins rather than serving public safety. I’d be all for a program that puts this kind of thing in the open, based on a collective understanding and agreement that, if you drive, your data will be used to profile you, and your insurance rates will directly reflect how good or bad a driver you seem to be. Want to pay less? Then don’t drive like an asshole. In the short term, the insurance companies get paid more, as the assholes are flagged and get reamed on the invoice; in the long term, public safety is improved, as all but the most determined assholes mitigate their behavior.

But do it in the open. Otherwise it looks like what it is, which is corporate collusion to pad the bottom line without an associated policy framework or long-term objective.

So. Do you trust your car? :slight_smile:

Wow. SON OF A BEEP-BEEP-BEEP!!

:rage:

It seems entirely possible, but pretty unethical and would bump up against data protection laws in the UK and the EU.

The criteria that insurance companies use to determine premiums are shrouded in secrecy. I guess that is a way of stopping people from gaming the system, but it can also throw up some strange anomalies. Your Post Code (ZIP in the US) can mean that someone in an identical house in the next street gets cheaper insurance than you because their address is in an area with a lower crime rate.

In the UK, where car insurance is very expensive, especially for young drivers, so-called “black box” insurance is becoming more popular. This is where the driver allows them to install a monitor that does all of what the OP describes. In theory, at least, this should both reward the good drivers and penalise the bad.

Yeah, as an American transplanted to the middle of Europe, I regularly remind myself to be grateful for the protection of the GDPR, and the knowledge that any company trying to engage in these kinds of shenanigans would be hammered with a debilitating fine if caught. (Which is not to say that every company respects the GDPR. I’m currently engaged in a frustrating back-and-forth with Facebook in which they’re insisting that I need to pay them a bunch of money to exercise my right to withdraw consent for the use of my personal data. Christ, what a terrible company. But that’s a separate discussion.)

Right, I don’t really have a problem with this. If someone believes themselves to be a safe driver and wants to benefit from correspondingly reduced rates, and freely consents to this kind of monitoring, that’s perfectly fine. Though I do wonder about the inevitability of increased rates for people who don’t consent, because the insurance provider will effectively regard their reluctance as an implicit confession of bad driving behavior. I’d expect some regulator attention if this happens in the future. Complicated stuff.

I have refused to have one of those infernal monitoring devices installed in my car when offered by my current auto insurance company. A mindless machine is utterly unable to grasp any context or subtext, in this case the nuances of a specific situation on the highway. My main goal out there is always to reduce friction between myself and fellow drivers, even if I have to (temporarily and technically) break a law to do so.

For example, driving thru Georgia yesterday I was about to pass a semi. But a car was about to merge from an on-ramp, and I knew the semi in 6 seconds would be wanting to move over to let him in. So, not wanting to test the adage that two things cannot occupy the same space at the same time, I accelerated to quickly clear them both. Same when I am on the on-ramp; I live in constant trepidation when behind someone that they’ll try to merge into heavy traffic driving below 50 MPH (when the existing traffic is going 70-80+), which they often indeed do. So if I am first in line I am flooring it, sorry. [I consider my relatively decent 200 HP engine a safety feature first and foremost]

Same with braking (for some bicyclist say who blithely ignores a stop sign), or swerving defensively when a car suddenly zips into view out of a side street-I don’t know if he saw me and will stop, or not, so if the outer lane is clear I am swerving out there. Again in another instance of the above I slowed down to give the semi room to pull out (turns out he didn’t, so I sped back up and passed him).

But if I have such a device installed, and know what makes it very angry, now I am not driving to minimize friction: I am driving to make the device happy. And thus turning myself into a menace to other drivers if the above options are no longer allowed by my stern silicon guardian. The most hilarious and ironic thing is that I am sure a subset of the on-ramp dawdlers are undoubtedly not wanting to angry up their device by accelerating quickly up to highway speed.

Who defines “shitty”? If my driving data shows that my car is not in use on Sunday mornings, and if there is data that shows that church going christians are better drivers, should my insurance rates go up because I do not go to church?

I dropped the program with my insurance when it gave me a demerit for safely pulling out of a parking lot. Tesla insurance dings you if you drive after 10pm.

I’m with @John_DiFool . Sometimes the safe action to take is to hit the brakes. Sometimes it’s to hit the gas.

This is directly related to my “do it in the open for the purpose of public safety” comments. If it’s done in secret by industry for self-serving reasons, then who knows how the stats will work. But if there’s general agreement on the intentions and objectives of the program, there should be more transparency and more opportunity for input.

Not guaranteed, obviously. Just more likely.

And if consensus can’t be reached, well, that’s an argument in favor of abandoning it entirely.

But definitely do not leave it to the businessbots. That will be certainly disastrous.

The answer is yes, your car’s computer is spying on you.

When I got my current car, I was offered this but declined. The enticement was “If you’re a good driver your rates will go down.” When I pointed out to the insurance broker that having to accelerate a bit over the speed limit was a normal part of everyday safe driving, he kind of dissembled for a minute…I knew it was a meaningless offer and a cash grab. I didn’t have the device installed.

Occasional incidents aren’t going to really negatively ding you with those monitoring devices. But if a constant pattern emerges of hard braking, acceleration, and frequent swerving, the problem is probably you.

Like hell. Insurance companies would ding you for waking up if they could.

Everyone in this thread has a good point as far as insurance, but you’re missing another factor: privacy. Automakers take your personal information and sell it. Here are three sources:

Data privacy concerns (Marketwatch)

Cars and privacy (Mozilla)

Cars are failing the privacy test (AP news)

And a “defense” from the Alliance for Automotive Innovation:

No, your car isn’t spying on you, it’s keeping you safe Which is bullshit, by the way.

As I read once about privacy, I don’t have anything to hide. But I do have something to protect.

I drive all older cars. I’m pretty sure my Model T isn’t spying on me. :wink:

The “newest” car I have is a 2005. I’m pretty sure it’s not smart enough to phone home for anything.

For years my insurance company (Allstate) has been offering policies that require monitoring devices to be installed in your vehicle in order to get cheaper rates. I have had the same old policy for about 30 years now so I don’t need to mess with any of that. A new customer can’t get my type of policy though.

I’m surprised there isn’t something in the policy that allows the company to “upgrade” it despite your wishes.

Instead of that device, I have the app on my phone to get credits from my insurance company. Yes, sometimes it dings me for a hard break or a sharp turn that was unwarranted, but on the other hand it has me at the 97th percentile of drivers and is feeding me a steady stream of credits. I’ll take the trade-off.

Seems like it’s just business - the business of insurance. Insurance is a risk pool and not much more. Companies are always working to identify higher-risk people in the pool, and either get rid of them, or charge them more to be in the pool with other people. Keeping expensive people in the pool means they have to charge everyone else more, or not make as much money as they want. While I agree with the OP at this point it seems sneaky and not transparent WRT auto insurance, there are probably dozens of other ways insurance companies are profiling each and every one of us to determine our level of risk in the pool.

Damn, I always check through my voice to text, but missed this one.

My insurance company offered one of those add-on devices to me some years ago. I was thinking about allowing it until I had a conversation with a fellow fisherman who said beach driving would raise my rates. I checked with my agent and he confirmed this.

When driving on a beach you have to do a lot of hard braking, sudden acceleration, and constant swerving. If you don’t you get stuck and have a lot of flat tires. The insurance company would think I’m driving like a maniac. At ten or fifteen MPH.