I recently read an Islamic Web site which claims that the Quran contains information about modern science which proves it is the Word of God. For instance, it claims the Quran describes embryonic development, the Big Bang, and the fact that atoms can be split. I have heard similar claims about the Bible, but those claims don’t seem to pan out under close examination. The passages in the Quran seem much more specific. Is there anything to these claims, or is it just religious propaganda?
See? This is why I wanted us to have some Islamic posters in here!!
Yer pal,
Satan
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Well, sounds like BS to me. But it’s nice to see a religion at least take a shot at accepting well-researched science…
I went to an Islamic chat group on IRC and showed everyone there this link. I am hoping that we might get an Islamic poster - someone who knows about the Koran and can help us understand their beliefs.
One person there gave me two websites which seem to answer the question:
http://www.it-is-truth.org/
http://home.swipnet.se/islam/quran-bible.htm
Unless we have an Islamic person who registers here, this is the best we have right now.
Yer pal,
Satan
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When europe was wallowing in the “dark ages” the Muslim world was flourishing. If I remember correctly, the Muslims were more advanced in medicine and math (they taught the europeans the concept of zero).
In the name of Allah, the most Gracious, the most Merciful.
How are you all? I have just joined this forum by request of a member of this forum, who approached me in a respectable and freindly way and so I could not refuse. I have written for other forums, the most recent of which is the junction at the following url :
http://www.thej.net/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi action=intro&BypassCookie=true
Anyways I was discussing religious issues at that forum. Many of the people there were very rude and had no respect for other beliefs or ways of thoughts whatsoever. And everytime I proved them wrong the insults and mockery just increased. I was disproving the theory of Trinity in that junction, using the Bible itself. I was also showing how Jesus never claimed his own divinity and pointing out the many contradictions and discrepancies that are found within Bible. At the end my most knowledgeable adversaries surrendered to the truth and gave up, albeit indirectly. For anyone who is interested in checking out the debates that took place, please visit the following url:
http://www.thej.net/ubb/Forum29/HTML/000009-2.html
My nick at that forum is the same one I have here. I also started a new topic at that forum proving that Prophet Mohammad was predicted and prophesized about in the Bible, both in the Old and New Testament. Anyways as you will notice if you check the url, I was always objetcive and never once insulted anyone’s beliefs. There is absolutely no fault in objective and open-minded criticism, as long as it is within limits and no mockery and jesting takes place. Anyways I sincerely pray and hope that I will not encounter the same attitude here that I did there. If there may be something that confuses you about Islam, ask please, but do not outrightly accuse or mock or insult. The western media and orientalists authors have portrayed Islam and its teachings in a manner that is far from its essence and truth, and so nowadays most people look at Islam and its teachings through those spectacles. Anyways I will gladly deal with Islam and the Quran and how it is fully compatible with science, in my next post, by the will of God. Take care all. Peace 
Glad to have you aboard.
There are several religions represented here most of them are respectful though you may come across the odd prosletiser.
Occasionally a nutcase will crop up but they usually manage to offend everybody so don’t let them bug you.
Welcome.
Well, it’s nice to have someone in here who knows something about the religion…welcome.
Now I’m gonna start taking issue with your post 
Before I start, though, i would like to point out that I know absolutely nothing about the Bible, and everything I argue will be from your own words…
in the link you cite, you say:
Well, if you believe in one God, and it mentions three names, then what conclusion can you lead to * other * than the Trinity? That sounds a lot like Biblical evidence * for * the Trinity.
Is there a specific passage attached to that? And how can you be sure that * that passage * itself wasn’t an error added in later? Sorta like the whole Douglas Adams thing: “the meteor knocked out the part of the ship that was supposed to detect if a meteor hit the ship”.
The quote from the Bible that you say refers to Christmas trees sounds much less like a Christmas tree, and much more like it refers to using the tree as wood to carve an idol out of. I won’t argue with you that Christianity incorperated pagan myths–that would be a losing battle. At the same time, your Biblical evidence is sort of flimsy there.
A lot of stuff was done after Jesus left–including the formation of Islam. A lot of stuff was done after Mohammed left–including a split in Islam.
So, I don’t think you “disproved” it; I don’t believe in it to begin with, and that argument seems darn short of proving it to me.
Now to the OP:
In this thread, you take on the issue of science in Islam.
Well, that’s like saying that you can’t find a single rowboat that mutated into a battleship. No individual evolves into a new species–the population as a whole does slowly. And there have been many experiments that show this–I’ll cite some if you like. Why do you think there’s a new strain of the flu every year (though you could probably claim this is just a new species created by God/Allah…fair enough)?
First off, how about some cites on that (from the Quaran, that is)?
Moreover, some of that is simply false. The heliocentric theory had been around long before Islam (created in 7th century AD, I believe); I found a number of references to scholars proposing this theory in the BC. Here’s one. While it is nice to see Islam not denying something pretty well proven, it had been around for at least 800 years before Mohammed.
The article you cite there to say that the Universe was created Intelligently is not anywhere near “proof”. It’s basic premise is that many different small alterations would have rendered Earth unsuitable for supporting life. It fails to account for the fact that there are many planets out there, * which do not support life because the conditions were unfavorable; * if you roll the dice enough times, eventually the near-impossible comes up. If this is the standard of science used to accept science into Islam, it is accepting a bastardized version.
So, ** Averroes, ** there’s my $.02. You argue very well in those forums, but you fail to support your claims, and make a few plainly false statements. So how bout it? Gimme your best shot
Just wanted to welcome you aboard Averroes. Generally a pretty friendly bunch. The arguments get heated sometimes, but generally remain above board and polite.
Yeah, shut up ** oldscratch, ** ya dirty pinko 
Averroes:
I am the poster who invited you. I welcome you, and I look forward to learning more about Islam.
In the spirit of this messageboard, I also want to express my hope that you are open to learning some things yourself.
It is with understanding each other tthat will help us all love each other.
Again, welcome!
Yer pal,
Satan
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I have a question for Averroes. Over in a thread on Kuwait. There was some argument on what the Koran has to say about women, and what other people should do about it. I was hoping you could read through it and offer your insight.
Thanks.
In the Name of Allah, the most Gracious, the most Merciful.
How are you all. I would like in this post to refute the very weak and yet quite humorous arguments of Myrr21. I’ll do this step by step, God willing, and whatever is left out I will deal with it in my next post. Firstly, …
The Bible does not in anyone place mention that these three names refer to one entity or one person. In fact it proves otherwise. The Father (God) is referred to as one being or entity, the Son (Jesus) as a totally different one, and again the Holy Spirit as another. Anyone who is even slightly familar with the Bible will notice this. There is not one verse or passage, that I have found anyways, that claims that the “three are one” or “the one is three”. For those that may seemingly imply this, through very farfetched interpretations, I have already explained them away, again using proofs from the Bible. Anyways its pointless for me to elaborate on this issue seeing as you yourself admitted lack of knowledge in it.
There are in fact several passages that prove the infalliblity of the Quran. God says about the Quran:
“Falsehood cannot come at it (Quran) from before it or from behind it. (It is) a revelation from the Wise, the Owner of Praise.” (Quran 41:42)
Again in another verse God says, “We revealed the reminder (ie. the Quran) and surely We are its Protector”. These verses clearly show that the Quran is free from any error or fault, from any discrepancy and contradiction, from any deletion or addition. Add to this the fact that according to all historians, regardless of faith or creed, bear witness that the Quran was written down in book form in the life of the Prophet Mohammad himself. The earliest Gospel was not written until about 60-70 years after Christ. Then again compare any Quran, from 100 yrs ago, from 200, or from a thousand, or anyone of the oldest manuscripts, to the ones that Muslims have in their homes today, and you will see that they are exactly the same, word for word. Contrast this to the Bible, where no two versions of the Bible are alike. You need compare only the King James version to the Revised Standard Version for example to see the difference. And this is not my personal opinion. It is a fact that even the Christian scholars and D.D’s themselves have attested to. For example on page 5 of the foreword to the Jehovah’s witnesses Bible, the following statement is made:
“In copying the insipred originals by hand the element of human frailty entered in, and so none of the thousands of copies extant today in the original language are perfect duplicates. The result is that no two copies are exactly alike.”
Anyways again I dont want to be too lengthy on this issue, and as I said earlier, since you yourself admitted your lack of knowledge concerning the Bible or even the Quran for that matter, then maybe you should learn first and then come and argue or discuss. Please dont take this offensively, it was only in the spirit of sincere advice.
Your taking my quotes out of context. I wouldnt have expected someone who speaks in the convincing manner as you do to NOT use such deceiving tactics. I was explaining how the issue of Trinity was not Biblical at all, but rather was an innovation that was created and formally established 3 centuries after Christ. I was simply showing how there is absolutely no firm base for the doctrine in the Bible, either within the Old or New Testaments. And so your roundabout aruguments all fall apart. I do not care what the people did after Prophet Jesus or Mohamed (saw), nor do I care for the sects that appeared here and there. What I was showing was that the Bible contains no proof whatsoever supporting the doctrine of Trinity. And so I would again advise you to please not quote things out of context, thereby creating nothing but confusion.
Now before going on to refute your other objections and claims, which I would gladly do in my next post, I would just advise you to read the ENTIRE discussion that took place, before saying that my arguments were weak. I only gave you the url to one page of the discussion that took place. The actual discussion is 4 pages long. And so since you only read one page of it, and since you are ignorant of what my other arguments and conclusions were, I do not think you have a right to judge if I had or had not disproven the doctrine of Trinity. Then again maybe you dont have time to go through all of that. In any case you are entitled to your own opinion and no one will force you into accepting or believing anything.
And lastly I would just like to say that my first post was only my welcoming statement and a bit of an introduction to what I would like to have discussed. I did not provide proofs from the Quran proving any scientific facts because it was way too early to do so. But that is my next step, by the will of God, after I have finished with the points you unneccessarily brought up. For now take care everyone. And thanks for everyone’s sincere welcomes. I appreciate it. Peace be unto you
The difference, though, is that the King James Version or the Revised Standard Version of the Bible are translations into English from the original texts. There are many different English translations of the Quran as well, one of which I have just bought so I could learn more about Islam. Of course, I am aware that Islam doesn’t consider translations of the Quran to be authoritative, and therein lies one of the major differences between Islam and Christianity. Muslims read the Quran in its original language, while Christians rely almost entirely on translations of the Bible, many of which have well-documented translational errors, some of which were even deliberately inserted into the text to conceal non-politically correct passages, such as those referring to slavery. Indeed, there are some denominations of Christianity who believe that the King James Bible is the only divinely inspired translation, even though there are many more accurate translations available. A Muslim’s reliance on the original text rather than translations seems an eminently more logical system which prevents all the above-mentioned confusion.
In the Name of Allah, the most Gracious, the most Merciful.
Now I will just breifly deal with the last part of your reply.
Now this quote is dealing with evolution and my very breif criticism of it at the junction. First of all I would just like to say that I am not a learned scientist or biologist. And yet if I wanted to provide an indepth criticism and refutation of some of the flaws of the evolution theory I would have done so. But as you may have seen from my replies, and from the topic itself, that was not at all my intention. I clearly said later in that same post of mine the following:
“And so as a proof that science does conflict with religion, one person noted that dilemna of creationism vs evolution. I simply said that evolution is not a scientific fact and therefore it cannot be used to prove that religion conflicts with science.”
That was my main point, and that is precisely what the discussion was about. In my short critique of the theory of evolution, I only wanted to show that the theory itself is flawed and contains many gaps, and therefore that it is far from being a scientific FACT. Then again what you have said just above is almost exactly what I was trying to say, that expirements have only proven that evolution takes place in the concomitants of certain species, but not in the totality of being in the species. There are no expirements whatsoever that prove that an entire species, such as apes for example, have evovled into humans, or reptiles for instance, into birds. The expirements have only shown that certain factors or aspects of a certain species have evolved and perfected themselves with time, and this only under certain conditions. Islam and the Quran do not oppose this part of the theory at all, for it is perfectly plausible to believe that God is he who is responsible for this evolution, seeing as everything is totally dependent on His will and power anyways.
In any case, as I said earlier, I am no scientist and my intention was to prove that true religion does not, and should not contradict or conflict with established sceintific facts.
As for your demand of passages or proofs from the Quran that support scientific facts, I will provide you with those shortly and their detailed explanation, also supported by Western scientists.
First of all, you seem to fail to understand that those other planets out there are not capable of supporting life as we know it, but may fully be capable of supporting other types of “life” that we are not aware of. Secondly the scope of knowledge that scientists have about our galaxy, nay our own earth, nay even our own bodies, is very very limited, so much that it would be very far-fetched to come to the conclusions you have made. There is a difference between knowing that something does not exist and not knowing that it exists. In any case, the knowledge that scientists may claim to have, although very limited, will still only cover the scope of our insignificant galaxy, one out of the thousands out there.
For the second part, where you gave the analogy of throwing dices, this in itself is a very erroneous analogy and the logic behind it is very flawed. When I gave the example of the ten coins and how the probability of all ten coming out in sequence would be one in TEN THOUSAND million, this was just to show the complexity of the Universe’s order and harmony through a very simple example. One cannot properly compare the entire Universe, with all of its laws and regulations, and all of its multiplicity and diversity, and all of its order and harmony and beauty, to the simple example of dice and coins. In any case there are several theology books on this matter, and in reality I cannot understand how one can believe that the universe came into being just by chance. Its like seeing a foot print in the middle of the desert and then coming to the conclusion that certain chemical reactions caused by certain unknown forces caused this footprint to create itself on its own.
In any case I only gave one point out of the seven of the orginal article, which by the way was not my own article but rather one written by an American Scientist and published in the Reader’s Digest a while ago. I think I should end this post for now, and maybe we can try to stick to the topic, ie. the Quran and science. Till next time, take care all, and peace
Hello, Averroes, and welcome aboard.
I have some other questions about Islam. However, I’m not sure you voluntered to treat this as an “ask the Islamic guy” thread. Are you open to answering general questions about Islam here?
In the Name of Allah, the most Gracious, the most Merciful.
I just wanted to very breifly comment on oldscratche’s query:
I did slightly slim through that thread, but I saw that it was pointless to read through it in detail because of one simple reason. The Kuwaiti government nor its people represent the true Islam. This goes the same for the Saudi government, the Afghani gov’t, ect… I have nothing against them personally, but they are not the reprsentatives of the Quran or Islam. Their inclinations are usually more political and even anti-islamic more so than Islamic. And so basically the actions of a certain people or government should be judged according to the Quran and the Sunnah (sayings and actions of the Prophet). If they agree with these two, then those people may rightly so be called Muslims and the government Islamic. And yet most of the time, this is not the case, even though those people may ‘seem’ Islamic, or may cover and veil themselves within an Islamic context.
Anyways I just thought I might post a reply I gave on a related subject a while back at an old forum. Here it is:
**"Peace be upon you all,
I have been reading through most of what has been said in this forum against Islam as a religion. Some of the things that were said and are still being said are very disgusting remarks in the guise of intellectual words and modern logic. The fact that people were commenting without any proof or references or any knowledge whatsoever of even the basics of Islam shows how truly misguided they are. And this is exactly what lead me to start a whole new discussion dealing with some of the common misconceptions, lies, and rumours that were made against Islam. I invite all people to give their opinions and comments on the matters under discussion, but I ask all people, regardless of faith or creed, to at least respect people’s beliefs, if not agreeing with them.
The first point I would like to discuss is that of Women and their Rights in Islam. Islam was and still is accused by many ignorant people to be a “women-supressing” religion that allows no rights for women. This misconception, like similar ones, is influenced by the Oriental and Western perspectives and teachings. The fact of the matter is that Islam recorded a great turning point in the history of women which has no rival to this day.Through it, she regained her honor and rights of which she had been deprived for centuries under the burdens of unjust views of the pre-Islamic era of Ignorance. Many people fall vicitm to the false portraits that Western Media attaches to this religion.
It is enough of a blow against any accuser of Islam to show them this verse from the Quran : "He it is Who created you from a single being, and of the same (kind) did He make his mate, that he might incline to her;…"Holy Qur’an (7:189) This verse shows that God created man and woman from one and the same soul. And so what does this prove? Does it not prove that they are equal? Many people seem to use the words “equal” and “same” interchangeably. Islam regards women as equal to men and yet they are quite obviously different. They have different physical, mental, and emotional characteristics, a fact which modern science proves, and which no sane person would doubt. And it is for this reason that men and women, each within their own condtions and circumstances, require different rules and laws. But many people confusingly call this difference “ineqaulity”. Since when has the word “sameness” been synonomous with the word “equal”.
Another verse that proves and emphasizes that man and woman are twins gathered from one source and essence is the following : “Oh people! Be careful of (your duty to) your Lord, Who created you from a single being and created its mate of the same (kind) and spread from these two, men numerous and women;…” Holy Qur’an (4:1)
Islam declares that the foundation of honoring does not depend upon manhood but on righteous deeds and faith (in Allah). Whoever does an act achieves its results whether it be a man or a woman:
“Surely the men who submit and the women who submit, and the believing men and the believing women, and the obeying men and the obeying women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women, and the humble men and the humble women, and the almsgiving men and the almsgiving women, and the fasting men and the fasting women, and the men who guard their private parts and the women who guard, and the men who remember Allah much and the women who remember, Allah has prapared for them forgiveness and a mighty reward.” Holy Qur’an (33:35)
Islam also insists that the believers are guardians of each other. They spread goodness among themselves and bid to what is right and forbid what is wrong and evil.
“And (as for) the believing men and the believing women, they are guardians of each other. they enjoin good and forbid evil and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate (zakat) and obey Allah and His Messenger; (as for) these, Allah will show mercy to them;…” Holy Qur’an (9:71)
Also many people label the Prophet and Messneger of God Mohammed (saw) as a womanizer or women oppressor. I do not know where they came up with these petty and false notions from. Is it not he who said “None would respect women except the magnanimous ones, and none would insult them except the ignoble ones”? (Islam wa al-mar’ah (Islam and Women). Saeed Afghani quoting from Tirmidhi.) Is it also not he who said “Treat your children equally concerning gifts (offers), so if I were obliging, surely I would prefer women”? (Ibid., Jami’ al-Saghir)Is it not this blessed and beloved man who once said, “I do not think that a man gets better in faith without loving women better”? (Man la yahdroho al-Faqih, Sheikh Saduq, vol. 3, chap. 103, Hub al- Nisa’.) Does not the Quran, the Holy revelation that was revealed to this humble Prophet, say in regards to woman : “…and treat them kindly; then if you hate them, it may be that you dislike a thing while Allah has placed abundant good in it.” Holy Qur’an (4:19) Does not the Holy Book of God, upon which the totality of Islam is based, and from which all Islamic Laws are derived, say, “And one of His signs is that He created mates for you from yourselves that you may find rest in them, and He put between you love and compassion;…” Holy Qur’an (30:21)
Where in all of this do you see any signs of injustice or cruelty towards women. These are the doctrines of the Islamic faith. I dont really care about what so-called Muslims do to their wives or how they treat them. I dont care about the political structure of Afghanistan and its oppression to women. It is very illogical and foolish to blame the sins of the people on the religion they follow. If I were to use this logic, then I would find myself obliged to blame the Christian faith of the atrocities and murders commited by the Crusaders in the 12 century A.D. I would also find myself in need to blame the Jewish faith of the oppression and killings carried out by the Zionist movement against the Palestinian Arabs. But obviously such a stance would be illogical and even idiotic. The point I am trying to make is that the sources of the Religion are available and pure in their original forms. Whether or not the majority of people apply them is a totally different issue."**
That was my original article from a while back. Although it may have been quite long, still it is informative and I think it should satisfy what you were asking about. For more info on Women and their rights in Islam, please visit the following urls:
Averroes:
We have a tradition here of starting “Ask the _______ Guy” threads. Some of them are attempts as humor (“Ask the college student”), while others are more serious (“Ask the Fundie”) and some hit upon both extremes (the infamous “Ask The Gay Guy”).
In the interest of keeping this thread on the specific topic at hand, and at the same time, wishiing to quench our overall interest in learning about Islam, with your permission, I would like to start a thread entitled “Ask the Muuslim,” or you could start it if you wished.
It would be a nice primer to Islam, and also give us a chance to know you personally.
Yer pal,
Satan
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Yes I will try my best to answer any questions that are posed to me on Islamic issues. It should be noted though that whatever answers may seem deficient, then this is my own deficiency. I am no scholar and only 18 years of age. But I will try my best to the best of my knowledge to answer. It would in fact be my pleasure. Just please try not to flood me with questions all at once
Good heavens, that’s the most brilliantly blatant example of question-begging, or petitio principii, I have ever seen.
I’ll leave it to others to explain “Why Biology is Not a Math Problem,” and other exciting topics in evolutionary biology.