Islam and Science

** Averroes: ** One thing you’ll find here is that we really like cites–if you’re going to claim that Islam predicts science, please give us quotes.

First off, you have as yet to adress the issue of your claim that Islam predicted the heliocentric theory before science–given the fact that, as I clearly showed and referenced, the theory had been around for 800 years or so beforehand.

Secondly, my lack of knowledge of the Bible in fact is an asset here–I am able to go through your argument point by point using only logic, not relying on a quote from the Bible–which you yourself say is flawed.

Moving on, your refutation of my bit on the Trinity is completely illogical. I’ll go through this step-by-step.
This is from the Christian point of view.

  1. You believe that there is one, and only one God
  2. The Bible clearly mentions three names as different “divine” beings. Note the quotes–I know about the whole “jesus didn’t claim to be divine” thing.
  3. There is ** no ** conclusion you can reach, other than that the three are one. You don’t need a Bible quote to dictate simple logic to you.

Of course this doesn’t aplly to you, since you don’t believe in the Trinity, but to a Christian who accepts and believes the Bible, this is a simple logical conclusion.

And FTR, I read the vast majority of your link, though you have a tendency to write at great length and without message board-friendly format.

I’ve got news for you; there’s no such thing as a scientific fact. Any “fact” may be later repealed if new evidence shows up. There are, however, laws–which are theories that have been repeatedly proved to hold true. Evolution has been repeatedly shown to hold true–and should have been “declared” a law long ago. There is more evidence for it than there was for many laws that no one–even creationists–disputes (some of thermodynamics, for example).

Moreover, you are completely inaccurate in trying to separate the fact that we have seen small-scale evolution from the fact that larger-scale does happen. I refer you to one of Cecil’s columns . Here’s another one that deals with claims that evolution isn’t happening–and with your erronious attempt to group evolution and the Big Bang theory together.

Again, you can’t just accept the parts of the theory that don’t conflict with your religion, and just leave the rest out. I refer you to the first of the previous links. if you want more info on this, I have access to a full science and technology library, and can wheel out as much evidence for evolution as you want. I’ve just given you two cites–albeit secondary sources rather than primary–you’ve given us none.

Again I ask you, what is to say that the passages affirming the Quaran’s accuracy were not errors in and of themselves? Suppose that, when it was written, the failable humans accidentally or intentionally entered those passages? Just because a book claims itself to be accurate, doesn’t mean that it is. I’ll give you an example:
Say that I declare today that I am the new voice of God on Earth. Now, many of you will laugh at me, but suppose I convince a few people. Say I declare that everything I ay is God’s word. Now say that I also declare that nothing I say is false. Obviously, I’ve commited a logical fallacy–the only thing asserting that everything I say is correct is me…and that assertion is only correct if the asserion is already true. But the assertion is only true if everything else I’ve claimed is true. And everything else I’ve claimed is true is only correct if that assertion is true…and round and round and round we go; where we stop, nobody knows.

This is the exact same case as the cites you give from the Quaran–they are only true if the rest of the Quaran is accurate, and the rest of the Quaran is accurate only if those statements are true. These passages rely on their own truth to establish their truth–that doesn’t work.

Well, i’ll leave it at that, for now. Please give some specific examploes of all the science the Quaran supposedly predicts. I am very much in favor of religion accepting and integrating science, but not some bastardized version, and not when they falsely claim to have predicted it–800 years after it was already known.

Hi,
I’m a muslim too and a very big straightdope fan.Yep fighting ignorance seems to be done pretty nicely here and i really love the discussions going on.
Well Averroes thats a really nice job you’re doing and i can only try to offer some support.
The world seems to be totally ignorant of Islam.Mainly its been media portrayal and the spoiling of the Islam image by the Fundamentalists etc.
Islam is actually totally misinterpreted.People are actually scared of it.When people think of christianity,they think of santa claus and christmas trees,when they think of Islam they think of bearded men wearing turbans holding machine guns and women wearing black veils.
In the prophet’s time women actively took part in trade and business.In fact Muhammad’s(PBUH) wife Khadija was a very noble businesswoman and she sent the holy prophet(PBUH) a marriage proposal which he accepted.Does that in anyway make you think that women were not encouraged to take part in anything.Afghanistan is just politically motivated in what it is doing.They have to suppress people in that fashion.its a part of war.Every muslim knows how much education is stressed in Islam,especially for girls.Then how can the Taliban ban female education and say that their govt. is Islamic.Also Saudi Arabia is seen as the main concentration of Islam in the sense that Islam had its origins in one of its cities.However it is a kingdom.Islam does not give that system of government.Then people say that Saudi is an Islamic form of govt.Islam stresses democracy.All the earlier caliphs were chosen and not born as leaders.Thats where the shia sunni conflict and divisions arose,howver it is strongly stressed in the Quran that god will not forgive those who divide Islam.It is actually more of a political thing and many muslims don’t give it much thought and no discrimination on the subject.
As far as any modifications in the Quran are concerned.Well the Quran does not claim to be a new religion.It is just claiming to be the final product.The reason is that accepting and understanding religion is a gradual process.Islam has such a wide scope that people were not really ready for Islam before it.I do not mean in terms of being complicated.In Islam you find a complete system of Law and life, and clarifications of mistakes that have been made by people in interpreting Jewism and Christianity.Its more law than theory unlike christianity which is more theory than law.People already knew most of the theory,e.g heaven and hell etc. This wasn’t needed at the time.They needed to be given the final course.How to lead a life that was satisfying and fulfilling and could rid people of depression,greed,guilt and dissatisfaction.

My main point is this.If you go to a shop to buy a book and there are three versions available.Will you buy the first,second or latest version of the same book?

Also The Quran was written in front of the prophet by witnesses who wrote every word of the revelation.Did you know that in the quran is stated a challenge to any man to write anything that equals it.The mystery of the Quran is such that it is neither poetry nor prose.It cannot be classified as such.It was also revealed by someone whom everyone,friends and foes knew to be completely uneducated.A trader called Muhammad,whom everyone trusted and no one included enemies could call a liar 'cos he had never lied.In fact they called Muhammad mad and a lunatic,but knew he could not lie for never in his 40 years before the revelation,had he spoken a lie.
Well any questions you can ask me or Averroes
Bye
Zeeshan

Whoa! Slow down guy…one breath at a time.

I’m having a lot of trouble following you here–partly due to the fact that I do not know enough about things you refer to affhand, but also partly due to some very confusing syntax. I don’t like to criticize people about spelling or grammar, but in this case it’s interfering some with my comprehension. I’m actually interested in this topic, though…

And FTR, I buy the best edition of a book, though sometimes I go with the cheapest :slight_smile:

Figures, I ask the guy to clean up his post a little, and write “affhand” instead of “offhand”…

Just shoot me now :smiley:

Hey Myrr21,
Sorry but i was typing real fast.i had so much i wanted to say and i was also dying to go out to the garden for a late night cigarrete.
Well what do you not follow?Actually come to think of it, i was a bit “affhand” :slight_smile:
Ok just tell me if you need anything cleared up.I really love big hot steamy intellectual arguments,so don’t worry about getting personal or anything.I am really enjoying this site.
bye
Zeeshan

In that case, I think I have to forgive you :wink:
The main thing I was having trouble following was whether Islam requires/heavily recomends/accepts democracy. You say about monarchy that “Islam doesn’t give that form of govt”–which is kinda confusing. So my question pretty much boils down to:

is there anything in Islam that specifically promotes democracy, or is it something that has been interpreted from the text?

Since we have some Muslim perspectives on board,
I would like to know about the Mosque of the 2 Qiblahs.

  1. Is it in Medina?
  2. Does the Prophet comment on his action there in the Koran or in a hadith?
  3. Hi Opal
  4. What is the theological significance of this episode?

Thanks in advance for the attention and Welcome aBoard!
( Don’t worry about #3 it is an inside joke. We have manny of these. )

I have another question. I’m well aware that you can find quotes from the Quran that support the rights of women. I have no doubt that many Muslims do so. My question, is, what are the quotes that can be used to justify denying women the right to vote. Are there any, there must be some that can be taken out of context. Again this flows from the debate on Kuwait. One poster spoke of the law being derived from the Quran, as such, they are able to deny women the right to vote. If anyone could elaborate, please do. Also, nice to have you guys aboard. Go check out the other forums.

**

I’m afraid that this simply isn’t true. Historians who study the Quran have found a number of variant texts in the earliest extant copies, so you can’t claim that all historians believe that the Quran we have now is the one which Mohammed delivered. One historian who disputed the idea that the Quran wasn’t written down during the life of Mohammed was run out of his country by death threats; I read an article in The Atlantic on the topic recently. Some historians have even made a case that Mohammed didn’t exist.

**

As a structural biologist, this is certainly news to me.

**

Again, you simply have your facts 100% wrong. I personally have performed experiments (involving protein homology) which prove that birds evolved from reptiles!

I’m afraid your argument that the Quran doesn’t oppose science is just begging the question. Modern science tells us, plain and simple, that evolution is true. The Quran, it appears, disagrees with that. How can you then say that the Quran doesn’t conflict with science? Simple: if a scientific fact disagrees with the Quran, you simply redefine it as no longer being science.

-Ben

“Verses 90 to 92, sura 10 inform us that the Children of Israel crossed the sea while the Pharaoh and his troops were pursuing them, and that it was only when the Pharoah was about to be drowned that he cried: “I believe there is no God except the God in which the Children of Israel belive in. I am of those who submit themselves to Hm” God replied “What? Now! Thou hast rebelled and caused depravity. This day, We save thee in thy body so that though mayest be a sign for those who will come after thee.” This text of the Qur’an merely stated very clearly that the Pharaohs body will be saved: that is the the important piece of information…”
“…As the Qur’an merely states, the body of the Pharaoh of the Exodus was in fact rescued: whichever of the Pharaohs it was, vistors may see him in the Royal Mummies Room of the Egyptian Museum, Cairo.”

In 1898, a mummy was discovered in the Valley of Kings. It was taken into Cairo museum, and put on display. The mummies name was Merneptah.
“…he most probably died either from drowning according to the Scriptual narrations, or from very violent shocks preceding the moment when he was drowned - or both at once…”
“Rameses II, Pharaoh of the Oppresion
Merneptah, Pharaoh of the Exodus”

Also, it is said that Moses was a baby when he was taken to Ramesses II. Ramesses reign lasted 67 years. During the test, it was said that Merneptah died in his early-mid 20s. Moses was 83 when he and his people fled from the Pharaoh. So isnt it logical that Merneptah was the Pharaoh of the Exodus?

It is true that the Koran has many verse which support the equality of women. however, it is jiust as true, that in few Muslim counties are women treated in any way equal, and in the most “devout”, they are treated the worst. Yes, we can blame the “religion” for what its practicioners do, altho we should not blame the Prophet, himself.

As a Celtic Christian, when someone tells about the bad things done in the name of Jesus, I can say that it is not the belief of MY branch of the Church, or that it was not JD’s intention that his words be warped like that, but I cannot say that it is not, in some way, the fault of Christianity, or, more likely, the Church.

But in the case of the terribly unequal status of women, that is something which is endemic amoung Muslim nations, is almost ONLY Muslim nations, and the Muslim religion is used to justify it. So, unless some 90% of the “ayatollahs” are wrong about how the Koran should be interpreted, and NOBODY is “calling them on it”, we can only conclude there is something wrong, there.

Raven said:

**
This only works to the extent that you twist both science and the Koran. What most definitely does not happen in development is that an embryo is flesh that turns into a little skeleton which is then clothed in flesh, as described in the Koran. Instead, the embryo is a blob of flesh. Ultimately, bones form inside it. In other words, science describes the exact opposite of that the Koran claims.

Look, any primitive person can say hey, people have bones, they have flesh, babies seem like they start out small and get bigger- maybe you start out with a blob, and it turns into a little skeleton, and then muscles get strapped onto it, because it would be awfully hard to shove the bones in after the flesh was already there. If the Koran really described embryology, it would be saying that you started out as a single cell, it divided to form a blob, then the blob turned into a hollow balloon, then the balloon collapsed to turn into a double-layered balloon with a hole in it, then it flattened out and grew to have such-and-such number of layers, a tube formed along the center which became your brain, etc. What we have instead is something that is blatantly obvious, but totally wrong (ie that bodies are built like anything else, adding layers to a core, like putting shingles on a roof) mixed with some pre-existing ideas about embryology (that the embryo starts out shapeless, like Pliny’s ideas about where baby bears come from.)

This is arguably even worse than the argument that Genesis is a sort of “evolution for goatheards.” Clearly a description of the physical shapes taken on by a developing embryo was well within Mohammed’s grasp in ways that an understanding of natural selection wasn’t. So why didn’t Allah tell him the truth, instead of telling him something that was vague, oversimplified, and the precise opposite of the truth?

-Ben

Hi,

For a complete answer to your EMBRYONIC DEVELOPMENT problem,read the 2 sections about it in
http://www.it-is-truth.org
Please go through this site.I’ll write about the pharaoh issue in my next post 'cos that is kind long too.

Well the Quran states the stages of embryonic development like this in one place.Here it states that the process takes place in the WOMB,Though at that time and until much later,it was thought that the sperm was doing all the work.

“Then we showed him this verse: He creates you in the wombs of your mother, in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness.” (Qur’an 39:6).

Moreover, the Glorious Qur’an has given each of these stages a name: the first being the nutfah, or the drop of water, the second being the ‘alaqah, a leech-like substance, the third being the mudghah, or a chewed-like lump, the fourth being bones, and then the clothing of the bones with flesh.

Don’t you really think that bones come before skin and chewed lump means flesh which comes first.Well think about it?

I don’t know the significa
well first to prove that the Quran is still in original form.

MYTH:
The Quran was edited later on like the bible and moulded,however just because it says it has not been edited that doesn’t justify it.

TRUTH:
The Quran was actually a series of “divine” revelations from the holy prophet.The quran says that we have made an example in muhammad’s life for you.How can anyone say he did not exist when each and every facet of his life and personality is made public.The revelations would be written down and memorized as soon as it was revealed which wasn’t really hard considering the revelation of the Quran spanned around 20 years.Well since so many people knew it by heart,that was a sure way to preserve it at the time,however after muhammad died,his successor Abu Bakr Appointed a council to create a book out of the revelation.
The Quran was always meant to be a book,since it states itself as a book and the prophet used to tell the place and position of a particular verse,so that it was all in sequence and all the compilers had to do(since they and a lot of people knew it by heart too),was to compile all the written verses and verify each and every word with the memorized version of people who knew it by heart so that no errors would be committed during the compilation.
After that when the prophet’s companion Usman was elected as caliph,he decided to distribute Abu Bakr’s Quran.You see Abu Bakr wanted a copy for himself.However several versions of the Quran were in circulation at that time among the different tribes.

Why didn’t the prophet just write a book instead of going through the memorization and “dictation” process?

Well simple.He was totally illiterate.He was a simple man who was known and respected by all to be a very truthful man.Yet hen revealed a code that was going to change all history to come.

My Question is how can anyone for that matter say that he does not exist when he chose to have every facet of his life documented.Never in the history of mankind has there been so knowledge about the prophet.Just ask any 10 year old kid in Pakistan,he’ll tell you more about muhammad than the pope knows about Jesus.
Also,the Quran is the most memorized book in the history of mankind.
Also the language of the Quran has eluded great Arab linguists and poets to this day.Arabic is a very rich language and at the time of the Quran there were many great and famous Arab poets around,however no one could write a book,nay a verse like that of the Quran and no one can to this day.Even if you don’t know arabic(like me),you notice that there is such a harmony between the words.It is all neither poetry nor prose.Just listen to the Quran and you will notice it yourself.In fact when some unfamiliar people listen to the Quran they refer to it as
“Hey i heard this muslim guy sing the Quran”
That is because of the nature of the quran that simple reading makes it seem like singing or something.

The Quran gave a challenge to all mankind.This has been unanswered till this day.This verse was revealed after the enemies of Islam at the time were saying that Muhammad is making up these verses:

In The words of the almighty:

If the whole of mankind and Jinn were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur’an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support. And We have explained to man, in this Qur’an, every kind of similitude: Yet the greater part of men refuse ( to receive it ) except with ingratitude. (Isra 88-89)

Bye
Zeeshan

Here are some articles for you guys to go through.


ARTICLE

well this artice doesn’t prove anything definite.Its just something to ponder over.

NUMERICAL MYSTERY:

From the Numeric Miracles In the Holy Qur’an

The Word | Meaning | #of times Mentioned

Dunya This life 115
Akhera The hereafter 115
Allah knows best
Malaekah Angels 88
Shayateen Devils 88
Allah knows best
Hayat Life 145
Mawt Death 145
Allah knows best
Nafee Usefulness 50
Fassad corruption 50
Allah knows best
Nass Mankind 368
Russul Messengers 368
Allah knows best
Iblis Satan 11
Iste’atha from iblis Ask refuge from Satan 11
Allah knows best
Museebah Catastrophe, Calamity 75
Shukr Thankfulness, Gratitude 75
Allah knows best
Infaque Expenditure 73
Redha Contentment 73
Allah knows best
Adhaloon Misguided, astray 17
Almawta Deceased 17
Allah knows best
Muslims Muslims 41
Jihad Struggle for Allah 41
Allah knows best
Thahab Gold 8
Taraf Luxurious life 8
Allah knows best
Asseher Magic 60
Albarakah Temptation, trial 60
Allah knows best
zakat almsgivings, Charity 32
Barakah Benediction 32
Allah knows best
Alaqul Mind, Brain 49
Annour Light 49
Allah knows best
Allessan Tongue 25
Almawethah Sermon, Preachment 25
Allah knows best
Arasghbah Desire 8
Arrahbah Fear 8
Allah knows best
Jahr Openness 16
Alaneah Public Ness 16
Allah knows best
Asheddah Firm 114
Assabr Patience 114
Allah knows best
Muhammad Muhammad 4
Sharee’ah Law 4
Allah knows best
Rajul Man 24
Marah (nisa) Woman 24
Allah knows best
Salat Prayer 5
Allah knows best
shahr Month 12
Allah knows best
Yawm Day 365
Allah knows best
Baher Sea 32
Barr Landmass 13
The word (Sea or Water) mentioned 32 times, and the word (Landmass) mentioned 13 times in the Holy Qur’an, if we add them together we will get 45.

Now let us do some calculations…

By finding the percentage of the number of the word (Sea) to the total number of the words (Sea and Landmass) we will have:
(32/45)x100% = 71.11111111111%

By finding the percentage of the number of the word (Landmass) to the total number of the words (Sea and Landmass) we will have:
(13/45)x100% = 28.88888888889%

We will find what Allah (swt) said in His Holy Book 14 centaury ago that the ratio of water on earth is 71.11111111111%, and the ratio of landmass is 28.88888888889%,
and these are the real ratios of the Water and landmass on earth.

So what do you think? Could it be a Chance?!
Who do you think taught prophet Muhammad all of these?

I am just telling you that " Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire ",what you have read is a small part of the Numeric Miracles of the Holy Qur’an, there are big volumes about the miracles of the Qur’an…

Credits: Dr. Tarik Al-Suwaidan


Well bye for now
Zeeshan

Just to hijack the thread for a moment, what exactly ARE the “jinn”? Are they really the “genies” of popular myth? Do they have anything to do with the four elements?

I suppose it was too much to hope that Bible Code type foolishness had not infected at least one of the major Semetic reliigons.

You’re right–it was too much to hope.

BTW, did I mention that if you count up the number of letters in my name (IRL), divide by three, add 5, and multiply by the square root of 1, you get the number of “periods” in which creation took place. See? I must be a prophet… whheee…I have * got * to go get me some “followers”
(by followers I mean scantily clad women–what use do I have for the more traditional type of disciple?)
:smiley:

In the Name of Allah, the most Gracious, the most Merciful.

How are you all? I hope well and fine. Wow a lot of people are joining the discussion. This is making it more interesting :slight_smile:

Anyways I will try to deal with as many points as I can, and what I leave out or forget will be answered in the future, by the will of God, by either me or any one of the other Muslims who have been joiining this forum recently.

First of all, about the issue of Kuwait, and about women and their status in the Quran or in Islam, I will just breifly go over this. First of all as I stated earlier the Kuwaiti government is not an Islamic government, even though they may claim to be so. If in the government they claimed to base their verdict or law on Islamic teachings or the Quran, then I would be curious to know where this can be found. There is absolutely no evidence found in the Quran showing or in any way implying that women do not have a right to vote. In fact you will notice that in the early history of Islam women were given political roles. They participated in the society very actively. The first wife of the Prophet is a perfect example. At a time when all the people of Mecca were hostile against him and his preaching, and tortured him and his companions, and oppressed him and his movement to their utmost abilities, his wife Khadija took a powerful stance against them, and supported him in spirit and body. Imam Ali attests to this fact when he says in one of his speeches in Nahgul Balagha:

The Prophet himself claimed that one of the foundations upon which the religion of Islam was kept safe and continuous was from the wealth that his wife Khadija contributed for God’s sake. Other wives of the Holy Prophet of Allah (s.a.w.), after the death of Khadijah (a.s.), also achieved great ranks in history. We should not forget the role of Um-Salamah who memorized so many of the traditions of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.). And so in conclusion, the active participation of women in the socio-political history of Islam is and was important.

There are also many other examples of women taking part actively in society, such as the Prophet’s daughter Fatima giving speeches in the mosque after the death of her father, and Zainab’s speeches publicly against the tyranny and oppression of the Ummayad rule. The stories are so many that would make this post too long.

It should be noted that the opinions of the scholars of Islam and the Ayatullah’s are for the most part in agreement and harmony with the pure teachings of Islam. Very rarely do they conflict. But the point of controversy here is that usually the audience for which the scholars write and talk is an Islamic audience, and therefore some things seem strange or extreme when they are viewed upon by a non-islamic audience and people.

Then again the majority of the masses, let alone the governments themselves, rarely follow the opinions of the Islamic scholars, nor those of the Quran and Sunnah. That is precisely why I say it is very foolish to blame the sins of the people on the religion they follow. Because for the most part they will not follow the dictates of the religion, but rather their own interpretations and opinions. Please do not take this to be any sort of apologetic excuses, or begging the question as you might call it. For even the Quran bears witness to the fact the majority of people are not true believers. In many places in the Quran, God says, “and most of the people do not believe”, “and most of the people do not understand”, “and most of the people do not reason” ect… In another place the Prophet is told, “And verily if you obeyed most of those on earth they would surely have misguided you from the straight path…” And so the quantity of people who behave in a certain manner or perform certain acts is not enough evidence that the Religion they follow is the cause of their actions. Almost all of the Christian freinds I have drink wine, smoke pot, have sex with girls regularly ect… and yet they all go to my Catholic school. It would be very stupendous of me to say that the cause of their sins or indecent acts is the religion they follow, ie. Christianity. The same would apply for the Christian Crusades for example, or the Spanish Inquisition, wherein thousands of Muslims and Jews were put to death and tormented if they did not covert to Christianity, by order of the Pope. This event took place in Spain in about the 9th century A.D. Would it therefor be logical for me to assume that Christianity is the cause of these barbaric murders? I dont think any objective and open minded person would think that!

One last comment that I would like to add here, although it does not have anything to do with any of the above, is the wrong assumption that the words ‘fact’ and ‘theory’ are synonymous. A distinction must be drawn between scientific theory and duly controlled observed fact. Theory is intended to explain a phenomenon or a series of phenomena not readily understandable. In many instances theory changes: it is liable to be modified or replaced by another theory when scientific progress makes it easier to analyse facts and invisage a more viable explanation. On the other hand, an observed fact checked by experimentation is not liable to modification: it becomes easier to define its characteristics, but it remains the same. It has been established that the Earth revolves around the Sun and the Moon around the Earth, and this fact will not be subject to revision; all that may be done in the future is to define the orbits more clearly.

Even through looking up these words (fact and theory) in a simple dicitionary one will notice the distinction between the two. Scientists have placed evolution in the ranks and category of ‘theory’ as oppose to established ‘fact’. Now either all of my biology teachers and textbooks were wrong, or you people are wrongly using one for the other :wink: Anyways more to come later, by the will of God. Peace for now :slight_smile:

Mohamed Ahmad

In the Name of Allah, the most Gracious, the most Merciful.

Now I will just like to post something that will totally refute one of the member’s assumptions that the Holy Quran is unauthentic or altered. As I stated earlier, the majority of historians agree to the Quran’s authenticity and purity. The few who may have taken an ignorant stance against this are probably Western orientalist writers whose biases caused them to deny the authenticity of the Quran. But even the majority of Western writers agree that the Holy Quran we have today is the exact duplicate of the one revealed to Prophet Mohammad. Anyways this is a post from a book called “The Bible, the Quran and Science” written by a French Scientist by the name of Dr. Maurice Bucaille.

**"Thanks to its undisputed authenticity, the text of the Qur’an holds a unique place among the books of Revelation, shared neither by the Old nor the New Testament. In the first two sections of this work, a review was made of the alterations undergone by the Old Testament and the Gospels before they were handed down to us in the form we know today. The same is not true for the Qur’an for the simple reason that it was written down at the time of the Prophet; we shall see how it came to be written, i.e. the process involved.

In this context, the differences separating the Qur’an from the Bible are in no way due to questions essentially concerned with date. Such questions are constantly put forward by certain people without regard to the circumstances prevailing at the time when the Judeo-Christian and the Qur’anic Revelations were written; they have an equal disregard for the circumstances surrounding the transmission of the Qur’an to the Prophet. It is suggested that a Seventh century text had more likelihood of coming down to us unaltered than other texts that are as many as fifteen centuries older. This comment, although correct, does not constitute a sufficient reason ; it is made more to excuse the alterations made in the Judeo-Christian texts in the course of centuries than to underline the notion that the text of the Qur’an, which was more recent, had less to fear from being modified by man.

In the case of the Old Testament, the sheer number of authors who tell the same story, plus all the revisions carried out on the text of certain books from the pre-Christian era, constitute as many reasons for inaccuracy and contradiction. As for the Gospels, nobody can claim that they invariably contain faithful accounts of Jesus’s words or a description of his actions strictly in keeping with reality. We have seen how successive versions of the texts showed a lack of definite authenticity and moreover that their authors were not eyewitnesses.

Also to be underlined is the distinction to be made between the Qur’an, a book of written Revelation, and the hadiths, collections of statements concerning the actions and sayings of Muhammad. Some of the Prophet’s companions started to write them down from the moment of his death. As an element of human error could have slipped in, the collection had to be resumed later and subjected to rigorous criticism so that the greatest credit is in practise given to documents that came along after Muhammad. Their authenticity varies, like that of the Gospels. Not a single Gospel was written down at the time of Jesus (they were all written long after his earthly mission had come to an end), and not a single collection of hadiths was compiled during the time of the Prophet.

The situation is very different for the Qur’an. As the Revelation progressed, the Prophet and the believers following him recited the text by heart and it was also written down by the scribes in his following. It therefore starts off with two elements of authenticity that the Gospels do not possess. This continued up to the Prophet’s death. At a time when not everybody could write, but everyone was able to recite, recitation afforded a considerable advantage because of the double-checking possible when the definitive text was compiled.

The Qur’anic Revelation was made by Archangel Gabriel to Muhammad. It took place over a period of more than twenty years of the Prophet’s life, beginning with the first verses of Sura 96, then resuming after a three-year break for a long period of twenty years up to the death of the Prophet in 632 A.D., i.e. ten years before Hegira and ten years after Hegira.[50]

The following was the first Revelation (sura 96, verses 1 to 5)[51].

“Read: In the name of thy Lord who created,
Who created man from something which clings
Read! Thy Lord is the most Noble
Who taught by the pen
Who taught man what he did not know.”

Professor Hamidullah notes in the Introduction to his French translation of the Qur’an that one of the themes of this first Revelation was the ‘praise of the pen as a means of human knowledge’ which would ‘explain the Prophet’s concern for the preservation of the Qur’an in writing.’

Texts formally prove that long before the Prophet left Makka for Madina (i.e. long before Hegira), the Qur’anic text so far revealed had been written down. We shall see how the Qur’an is authentic in this. We know that Muhammad and the Believers who surrounded him were accustomed to reciting the revealed text from memory. It is therefore inconceivable for the Qur’an to refer to facts that did not square with reality because the latter could so easily be checked with people in the Prophet’s following, by asking the authors of the transcription.

Four suras dating from a period prior to Hegira refer to the writing down of the Qur’an before the Prophet left Makka in 622 (sura 80, verses 11 to 16):

“By no means! Indeed it is a message of instruction
Therefore whoever wills, should remember
On leaves held in honor
Exalted, purified
In the hands of scribes
Noble and pious.”

Yusuf Ali, in the commentary to his translation, 1934, wrote that when the Revelation of this sura was made, forty-two or forty-five others had been written and were kept by Muslims in Makka (out of a total of 114).

–Sura 85, verses 21 and 22:

“Nay, this is a glorious reading[52]
On a preserved tablet”

–Sura 56, verses 77 to 80:

“This is a glorious reading[52]
In a book well kept Which none but the purified teach.
This is a Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds.”

–Sura 25, verse 5:

“They said: Tales of the ancients which he has caused to be written and they are dictated to him morning and evening.” Here we have a reference to the accusations made by the Prophet’s enemies who treated him as an imposter. They spread the rumour that stories of antiquity were being dictated to him and he was writing them down or having them transcribed (the meaning of the word is debatable, but one must remember that Muhammad was illiterate). However this may be, the verse refers to this act of making a written record which is pointed out by Muhammad’s enemies themselves.

A sura that came after Hegira makes one last mention of the leaves on which these divine instructions were written:

–Sura 98, verses 2 and 3:

“An (apostle) from God recites leaves
Kept pure where are decrees right and straight.”

The Qur’an itself therefore provides indications as to the fact that it was set down in writing at the time of the Prophet. It is a known fact that there were several scribes in his following, the most famous of whom, Zaid Ibn Thâbit, has left his name to posterity.

In the preface to his French translation of the Qur’an (1971), Professor Hamidullah gives an excellent description of the conditions that prevailed when the text of the Qur’an was written, lasting up until the time of the Prophet’s death:

“The sources all agree in stating that whenever a fragment of the Qur’an was revealed, the Prophet called one of his literate companions and dictated it to him, indicating at the same time the exact position of the new fragment in the fabric of what had already been received . . . Descriptions note that Muhammad asked the scribe to reread to him what had been dictated so that he could correct any deficiencies . . . Another famous story tells how every year in the month of Ramadan, the Prophet would recite the whole of the Qur’an (so far revealed) to Gabriel . . ., that in the Ramadan preceding Muhammad’s death, Gabriel had made him recite it twice . . . It is known how since the Prophet’s time, Muslims acquired the habit of keeping vigil during Ramadan, and of reciting the whole of the Qur’an in addition to the usual prayers expected of them. Several sources add that Muhammad’s scribe Zaid was present at this final bringing-together of the texts. Elsewhere, numerous other personalities are mentioned as well.”

Extremely diverse materials were used for this first record: parchment, leather, wooden tablets, camels’ scapula, soft stone for inscriptions, etc.

At the same time however, Muhammad recommended that the faithful learn the Qur’an by heart. They did this for a part if not all of the text recited during prayers. Thus there were Hafizun who knew the whole of the Qur’an by heart and spread it abroad. The method of doubly preserving the text both in writing and by memorization proved to be extremely precious.

Not long after the Prophet’s death (632), his successor Abu Bakr, the first Caliph of Islam, asked Muhammad’s former head scribe, Zaid Ibn Thâbit, to make a copy. this he did. On Omar’s initiative (the future second Caliph), Zaid consulted all the information he could assemble at Madina: the witness of the Hafizun, copies of the Book written on various materials belonging to private individuals, all with the object of avoiding possible errors in transcription. Thus an extremely faithful copy of the Book was obtained.

The sources tell us that Caliph Omar, Abu Bakr’s successor in 634, subsequently made a single volume (mushaf) that he preserved and gave on his death to his daughter Hafsa, the Prophet’s widow.

The third Caliph of Islam, Uthman, who held the caliphate from 644 to 655, entrusted a commission of experts with the preparation of the great recension that bears his name. It checked the authenticity of the document produced under Abu Bakr which had remained in Hafsa’s possession until that time. The commission consulted Muslims who knew the text by heart. The critical analysis of the authenticity of the text was carried out very rigorously. The agreement of the witnesses was deemed necessary before the slightest verse containing debatable material was retained. It is indeed known how some verses of the Qur’an correct others in the case of prescriptions: this may be readily explained when one remembers that the Prophet’s period of apostolic activity stretched over twenty years (in round figures). The result is a text containing an order of suras that reflects the order followed by the Prophet in his complete recital of the Qur’an during Ramadan, as mentioned above.

One might perhaps ponder the motives that led the first three Caliphs, especially Uthman, to commission collections and recensions of the text. The reasons are in fact very simple: Islam’s expansion in the very first decades following Muhammad’s death was very rapid indeed and it happened among peoples whose native language was not Arabic. It was absolutely necessary to ensure the spread of a text that retained its original purity. Uthman’s recension had this as its objective.

Uthman sent copies of the text of the recension to the centres of the Islamic Empire and that is why, according to Professor Hamidullah, copies attributed to Uthman exist in Tashkent and Istanbul. Apart from one or two possible mistakes in copying, the oldest documents known to the present day, that are to be found throughout the Islamic world, are identical; the same is true for documents preserved in Europe (there are fragments in the Bibliothèque Nationale in Paris which, according to the experts, date from the Eighth and Ninth centuries A.D., i.e. the Second and Third Hegirian centuries). The numerous ancient texts that are known to be in existence all agree except for very minor variations which do not change the general meaning of the text at all. If the context sometimes allows more than one interpretation, it may well have to do with the fact that ancient writing was simpler than that of the present day.[53]

The 114 suras were arranged in decreasing order of length; there were nevertheless exceptions. The chronological sequence of the Revelation was not followed. In the majority of cases however, this sequence is known. A large number of descriptions are mentioned at several points in the text, sometimes giving rise to repetitions. Very frequently a passage will add details to a description that appears elsewhere in an incomplete form. Everything connected with modern science is, like many subjects dealt with in the Qur’an, scattered throughout the book without any semblance of classification.

  • It is imporatnt to say that Qua’an was collected during the Prophet’s lifetime. The Prophet, and before his death, had showed the collection of Qur’an scrolls to Gabriel many times. So, what is said in regard to collecting of Qur’an during the ruling period of the Caliphs after the Prophet means copying the same original copy written in the Prophet’s life which later were sent to different countries, and it does not mean the recording or writing of Qur’an through oral sources as it may be thought. Yet, many of the Companions have written the Qur’an exactly during the lifetime of the Prophet. One of those was Imam Ali’s copy. He, because of his close relation with the Prophet, his long companionship, didn’t only collect the dispersed scrolls of the Qur’an, but he rather could accompany it with a remarkable Tafseer, mentioning the occasion ofeach verse’s descension, and was regarded the first Tafseer of Qur’an since the beginning of the Islamic mission. Ibn Abi Al-Hadeed says," All the scholars agree that Imam Ali is the first one who collected the Qur’an,"(see Sharhul Nahj, 271). Another one, Kittani, says that Imam Ali could arrange the Qur’an according to each surah’s order of descension,(see Strategic Administration, 461). Ibn Sireen Tabe’ee relates from’Ikrimeh, who said that ‘lmam Ali could collect the Qur’an in a manner that if all mankind and jinn gathered to do that, they could not do it at all,’(see al-Itqan 1157-58). Ibn Jizzi Kalbi also narrates,“If only we could have the Qur’an which was collected by Ali then we could gain a lot of knowledge,” (see al-Tasheel, 114). That was only a brief note about the benefits of Imam Ali’s Mus’haf, as Ibn Sireen had declared, “I searched so long for Imam Ali’s Mus’haf and I correspounded with Medina, but all my efforts gone in vain.’(see al-Itqan, 1/58, al-Tabaqat,2/338). Thus; it becomes certain that Qur’an has been collected by Imam Ali without simple difference between it and other known copies, cxcept in the notes mentioned by Him which renders it as the most excellent copy has ever been known. Unfortunately, the inconvenient political conditions emerged after the demise of the Prophet,(i.e after the wicked issue of Saqeefah) was a main obstacle to get benefits from that remarkable copy of the Qur’an.”**

This book was written by a non-Muslim and is very famous and can be found in many book stores. And so therefore there can be no argument that the belief in the authenticity of the Quran is only based on the conclusion of Muslim scholars, since this author, one of many western authors, is non-Muslim and bears witness to this fact.

The book is available online for those who futher wish to review it or read it, at the following url:

http://home.swipnet.se/islam/quran-bible.htm

Well, Satan, I hope you’re happy.

Hi,
well guys the number thing article was not meant as proof of Islam’s truthfulness.i just posted it 'cos i thought it was interesting.You’re absolutely right,you don’t accept a religion and way of life just 'cos somebody saw that some numbers match so i would like to make that clear.I didn’t know there was stuff like this about the bible.If i write my name in microsoft,spellcheck gives a spelling mistake and states the true spelling of my name as Satan,so that doesn’t mean i am the devil or something,though some people might make you think otherwise :slight_smile:
Just like you guys i am also very skeptical of religion and am trying to discover the truth for myself.I mean what if you get caught on judgement day and are told “You were wrong all along schmuck.So go to hell.”
The decision must be made very carefully.Islam has emphasised the importance of this decision.
Islam doesn’t preach blind faith though a lot of muslims do.Actually in the Quran on numerous occasions we are told to observe the universe and everything in it.We are told to think for ourselves and discover religion and the truth for ourselves and go where our heart leads us.
You see in other religions e.g hinduism,hindu teachings forbid hindus to travel past the sea,stating that they will lose their religion.Why all the fear?Islam has no such fears.At least this is one religion that is confident about itself.
Bye
Zeeshan