Just as a vast majority of message boards with “Christian” themes or support will demonstrate an immense lack of tolerance for Muslims, homosexuals, “liberals,” (and Mormons and Catholics), even though the composition of those boards is drawn from a distinct (if loud) minority within the Christian community?
Reading this MB would provide a very warped view of the “typical” views of most of the U.S. regarding religion, politics, science, or any number of other issues. While reading Muslim MBs is probably a good thing to see some of the logic (and illogic) that holds forth in other parts of the world, using them to gauge the “real” views held by 2 billion Muslims would not seem to be a very profitable exercise.
It is true that there would be some extreme elements on both sides of the spectrum, but still, there is a difference.
On all the Christian MessageBoards I have visited (Im agnostic btw) and where there are fanatics, what I see is Christians of course proclaiming their beliefs as truth and but peace as the way.
On many muslim message boards, I see muslims calling for the death of all Jews and Christians.
I invite you to show me just one christian board calling for the death of jews, muslims etc…just one please
and I’ll match you by a high multiple of muslim message boards calling out for violence.
I agree with you here that it is not representative ‘all’ muslims as christian boards are not representative of ‘all’ christians.
But the unique thing about some of these boards is that fanaticism, doctrine, and dogma are taken to the extreme, so there is some truth to what the members are espousing of thier religion.
In this case, Ive been on many muslim boards and unlike the christian boards, the participants are rude, belittle all non muslims, call them names and down right nasty.
As it is now, one uses peace as a means to an end and the other violence as a means to an end.
The internet isn’t quite as global as Bill Gates would have you believe. The stuff you read on muslim message boards is mostly posted by bored teenagers who don’t have a clue about global politics and are just trying to attract chicks.
The internet is freely available in rich western christian countries (like America) and therefore christian message boards attract a much wider range of people (of all ages). When you actually go out IRL and talk to muslims you realise that the stuff you read on muslim message boards bears zero relevance to what real-life muslims actually believe.
You can’t draw any conclusions about Islam based on reading muslim message boards - this is your first mistake.
Bear in mind that muslim countries are generally quite poor and they don’t have a computer in every home so the stuff you are reading has probably been posted by young muslims living in western countries. Not by people living in muslim countries.
In situations of extreme poverty people often turn to religion as a way out. So if there are radicalised muslims in Yemen, for example, look to the poverty as the cause not to the religion. Religion is the “cure” not the cause, the panacea not the problem. Follow the money, always follow the money.
Bear in mind too that the medium we are using to converse is the English language. Only those muslims living in England or America will know the English language which excludes the vast majority of the world’s muslims right away. Immigrants from muslim countries won’t know much English either (not enough to communicate on the net) only their children will.
And don’t believe everything you read on the internet.
Quite an interesting collection of ‘thoughts’ we have here. There is something I would like to point out about organized religion. There is not one single organized religion whose splinter groups are not capable of violence. Bring up the Falun Gong or Bhuddists if you will, yet even their protests by inaction cause violence against them and other innocents by the government that denies them rights.
Simply put, is Islam a religion of peace? No. Is Christianity a religion of peace? No. Are there peaceful people within the collective confines of both religions? Absolutely. Sure, it’s a convenient arguement for Christians to say that Christ said (they think, anyway) to turn the other cheek, yet earlier in the Great Story, it was ok to stone your wife to death. Peaceful? No.
Speaking of hypocrisy, as Americans, we like to say that ‘‘the squeaky wheel gets the grease’’ Well, what wheel happens to be more squeaky than the wheel of Islam at this moment in history? Who is blowing up hotels, killing people over beauty pageants, and flying planes into buildings? Orthodox Greeks? No. Muslims. It’s quite situational, and to believe anything else is simply conjecture. It’s implausable to think that there is a giant western conspiracy against Islam, we don’t even know enough about it to conspire against it, we simply want to control it’s spread in our borders until we can get a handle on what it is that drives it’s followers.
Now comes the religious freedom brigade, right? Well, that’s a load of unadulterated bull$hit. Religious freedom has never existed in this new republic, and it never will. A short time line, if I may. The pilgrims, leaving England attempting to escape religious persecution come to the new world, only to eventually and violently persecute those native people that helped them survive. This brings us to 16th Century America, the colonies and the Salem Witch Trials. Twenty people murdered by the puritan government, and hundreds arrested, and unjustly detained, reputations, friendships, and lives, ruined. These are just two of the obvious ones, there are certainly hundreds, if not thousands of unreported cases.
At the end of it, we were a country divided by religion on September 10th, and we’re a country utterly frightened by it today.
By the criterion of Witch Trials, the New World did indeed have a lot more religious freedom.The Salem Witch Trials were a tiny extention of European witch trials, which went on for centuries and killed many thousands. Read, e.g., Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds – by Charles MacKay,
No, you can draw conclusions, you just can’t make general statements. If you visit a sample of 100 muslim web sites out there, and 51 of them say “Kill the Jews” and “Death to America” then you can draw the conclusion that a mjority of muslim websites are anti-western and anti-israel. You cannot say all muslims hate the Jews.
This is the most frightening thing you could have said! The virulent hatred is coming from the more enlightened, western educated Muslims. What must the rest of them be believing!!
Funny, I’ve been reading about the situation in Southern Africa, where the poverty is much worse than in the Muslim countries, and the Christians there are not rioting against the Jews or America.
see my post above about being really frightened now.
I am not joking. I have read enough of the Koran and have lived in an environment where I regularly encountered prominent Islamic leaders’ teachings to understand what Islam is about.
I am not sure if you can read Arabic, but you must read the Koran in its original language to understand what the true meaning of the text is–constant violence against the opponents of Allah and Mohammed. This is what bin Laden, the Nigerians, Hizbollah have claimed and no reputable Muslim leader has attempted to contradict those claims.
English translations soften the language in the Koran (for example, using the word punish when the original Arabic says torture).
Of course, Southern Africa is one of most violent places in the world. If you don’t believe me, ask the residents of Congo, which has been invaded by just about all of its neighbors in a crushing civil war. They just recently made peace with Uganda in hopes of ending the occupation, but the Rwandans aren’t leaving just yet.
First (pedantic) point - Congo isn’t in Southern Africa.
Second (real) point re Southern Africa - you are correct, but the violence is not directed against any particular group, not even the white former “oppressors”. It is a product of the levels of poverty, the (perceived or actual) lack of opportunity for improvement, freedom of access to weapons, and many more factors. All of those elements are present in many Muslim countries, but their rage is directed (deliberately IMO) toward external symbols.
You will, of course, note that I said “You can’t draw any conclusions about Islam based on reading muslim message boards”.
Obviously you can draw conclusions about muslim message boards by reading muslim message boards, but this isn’t what I said.
So your point is left being…kinda pointless.
No, the most virulent hatred comes from al Qaeda. Muslim message boards just consist of bored teenagers mouthing off. You’ll notice that on any given board there’s a hardcore of four or five posters who make all the noise.
Don’t confuse al Qaeda with muslim message boards. Don’t confuse cyber reality with real reality. Educated muslims are more likely to be the ones protesting against America’s foreign policy just as students around the world are traditionally the ones who protest loudest.
Most muslims in eg Indonesia are sceptical of American foreign policy but wouldn’t dream of planting bombs. Many Europeans are also sceptical of American foreign policy. For that matter, many Americans are sceptical of American foreign policy, so what?
Scepticism does not equal terrorism. Just because many muslims (and many Europeans and many Americans) don’t like American foreign policy doesn’t mean that many muslims (and many Europeans and many Americans) are terrorists.
See there’s this thing called democracy where you’re allowed to voice dissenting viewpoints…
Fascinating, I’m sure, but what’s that got to do with Islam?
I love your line of ?reasoning?. Anything that matches your worldview is right, anything else by definition in rubbish. Can I suggest you do a search in SD on the subject of narcissism.
Example #1
Please cite the source of your demographic studies on web posters, as well as their sexual preferences and experience. Remember that “mostly” means a majority, more than 50%, a specific ratio.
Example #2
So christian message boards can be used to support an argument, but muslim boards cannot?
Example #3
Cite examples of your daily encounters with “real-life muslims”. I encounter hundreds every week, and since they don’t match your opinions, are they “unreal-life”?
Now, in specific answer to your second post. Your OP said…
Since you cite poverty as the root cause of religious radicalization, my question to you in the OP is perfectly valid - show me the religious element in Southern Africa, which is much poorer than Muslim countries. It therefore is indeed a “fascinationg” question, and has a great deal to do with the thread.
Where did I say that anything matching my worldview is right? I am merely stating my opinion. Agree with it or don’t, I don’t care.
Regarding your charge of narcissism, well I used to be narcissistic but now I’m perfect.
Just an educated guess really based on:
reading those boards and forming a judgement on the likely ages of those posting
speaking to muslims that I know and realising that very few of them come out with the kind of stuff you read on those boards
the knowledge that most of the worlds muslims don’t have access to the internet therefore muslim boards aren’t a representative sample of all muslims
the knowledge that those muslims who do post on the net more than likely live in countries where internet access is available ie rich countries
Don’t think I actually said this but I would agree that christian boards probably are more likely to be representative of the christian viewpoint since the internet is widespread in christian countries (America, Europe)
Eh? You want me to list everyone I meet? Sorry I don’t understand the request.
You encounter hundreds of muslims every week? Jesus you must lead a busy life. Meeting all those muslims must mean you don’t spend very long talking to them. Presumably you don’t get to know them very well.
Where do all these muslims come from?
So many errors in this paragraph it’s hard to know where to start.
First, Southern Africa has fuck all to do with Islam
Second, there are very poor countries in Southern Africa, whether they are any poorer than, say, Afghanistan is arguable
Third, there are plenty of wars and civil strife in Southern Africa - Rwanda, Zimbabwe, Angola
Fourth, the poor people in Southern Africa can’t realistically blame America for their woes since America doesn’t have much to do with the region. The poor people in the Middle East however can realisitically blame America for their woes since America has a LOT to do with the region - it has troops stationed there, there’s the question of Iraq, there’s the question of Israel and then there’s the oil.
So Southern Africa is not comparable with the middle east.
So as I said, Southern Africa is a fascinating subject but it has fuck all to do with the problems in Islamic countries.
Can’t have a charmer like Kalt having the last word
Time for school, kids.
The Qur’an specifically forbids violence against children.
We are specifically commanded to protect Christians and Jews, even from one and other, or their own squabbling sects.
Forced conversion is forbidden.
Fighting anyone who is not fighting you is forbidden.
The only specific justification for war is to return to the homes and places of worship you were driven out of.
Suicide is forbidden.
The verses people love to quote out of context that seem to command fighting all unbelievers are referring to specific battles against specific people who had done some specifically nasty things. Same with the verses that seem to condone fighting the Jews.
The Prophet and his people endured 12 years of harassment, torture, blackballing and murder before fleeing to Madina from their home city of Mecca. Even then, they were only given permission by Allah to fight after the Meccans persisted in trying to harm them.
If it is worth quoting chapter and verse, we could go there, but the trolling haters aren’t likely to listen anyway.
Thank you to all the fine people who came to the defense of truth and reason.