Islam, the religion of peace...

Kalt: Muslims - islam - are the ones causing all the trouble.

What do you mean, causing “all” the trouble? Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, and Jews are causing plenty of trouble in the form of religiously-motivated violence too, as my previous post pointed out. (And I didn’t even mention ethnic/religious violence between members of indigenous religions and Christians in Kenya, or Christian violence against Muslims in the former Yugoslavia, or any of a host of other examples.)

On the other side of the coin: how about the many survivors of the Hutu/Tutsi conflict in mostly-Christian Rwanda who are turning to Islam for peace and reconciliation?

These Muslims in Rwanda certainly consider themselves “practicing Muslims”, and peace is part of what they consider themselves required to practice. Maybe if “Joe Public” occasionally saw such reports in the mainstream media, in addition to the constant stream of articles on Muslim violence and intolerance, he’d be able to do some more sophisticated “pattern recognition” about world Islam as a whole.

(And I have to say that I don’t think it’s much of an advertisement for any religion to claim “We’re much less violent than other religions, because our adherents don’t really pay much attention to our teachings”. Gee, how admirable.)

There has many many threads about various atrocities condoned by the bible, you know. I too, could quote some verses of this book, proving that christianity and Judaism are religions preaching hatred and genocide…

It seems to me (an atheist looking in) that the more deeply rooted the belief in a particular religion (by a group or peoples), the more violence is condoned in defending that belief.
*You really should all be allowed to view how foolish religious violence appears to an atheist. It is comparable to two children feuding over who is the better superhero.[i/]

It seems to me (an atheist looking in) that the more deeply rooted the belief in a particular religion (by a group or peoples), the more violence is condoned in defending that belief.
You really should all be allowed to view how foolish religious violence appears to an atheist. It is comparable to two children feuding over who is the better superhero.

I won’t argue with that.

I don’t know if this has already been said -

It tends to be the stricter followers of a religeon that do such horrible things. and it tends to be the ‘moderates’ that follow it peacefully.

So, if it is the people that follow a religeon more closely that are more likely to do horrible things as a result then isn’t that at least an indication that, just possibly, the religon might be bad?

I personallly am anti-religeon (but I quite like the ones that really are quite peacefull - buddhism hinduism etc)

And - finding out that just about every god-damn terrorist (harming/killing non-military deliberately for the sake of revenge) act is commited by islamic terrorists I can’t help but laugh at people who say it is a totally peacefull religeon.

Sure- the vast majority of it’s followers are peaceful people and would not even think about harming another human being. but why is it that islam creates more of the other type of person than any other religeon? there must be something slightly wrong with it

I am here to be proved wrong - Just go easy when you do. (please)

Lobsang: *I personallly am anti-religeon (but I quite like the ones that really are quite peacefull - buddhism hinduism etc)

And - finding out that just about every god-damn terrorist (harming/killing non-military deliberately for the sake of revenge) act is commited by islamic terrorists I can’t help but laugh at people who say it is a totally peacefull religeon.*

Um, Lobsang, did you see my posts above about all the “deliberate non-military” violence committed by Buddhists against Christians or Hindus against Buddhists in Sri Lanka, and Hindus against Christians and Muslims in India, and Christians against Christians in N. Ireland and Rwanda? Yes, there is a lot of violence committed by Muslims, but it’s simply counterfactual to say that Muslims commit “just about every terrorist act”.

It completely baffles me how someone can believe such sweeping generalizations in the face of all the counterexamples. For Pete’s sake, only a little more than seven years ago, two American Christians with close ties to white supremacist groups such as “Christian Identity” blew up a building in Oklahoma, with casualties 15–20% of the total casualties from the World Trade Center attack. How can that just have totally fallen off our radar screen when we think about who is responsible for terrorism?

If the measure of a “totally peaceful” religion is that all its adherents be totally peaceful, then no religion qualifies, and we non-religious or anti-religious types don’t have a great track record either.

All I seem to hear about is islamic terrorism on a wide variety of news sources. Maybe the news is flawwed but you can understand a person thinking the vast majority of terrorism is commited by muslim [fundementalists].

I am not stupid enough to believe that no other religeon commits terror. I simply believe that most of it is done by islamic fundementalists these days.

Is the news really so flawwed that the majority of terrorism is non-islamic, but not being reported? can you honestly say yes to that Kimstu?

I’ll accept that.

Lobsang: All I seem to hear about is islamic terrorism on a wide variety of news sources.

I’m not saying that it’s not happening, just that comparable incidents by members of other groups are underreported—and so are instances of Muslim peacefulness and tolerance—because the stereotype of The Evil Violent Fundamentalist Muslim is a very hot news theme in this society these days.

Maybe the news is flawwed but you can understand a person thinking the vast majority of terrorism is commited by muslim [fundementalists]. I am not stupid enough to believe that no other religeon commits terror. I simply believe that most of it is done by islamic fundementalists these days.

“Most” as in “over 50%” is certainly a reasonable assessment. The majority of currently profiled terrorist groups are ones with ties to some form of Islamic extremism (and most of the rest are Marxist/Maoist insurgency groups, with some outliers like the Japanese Aum Shinrikyo, the ultra-Orthodox-Jewish Kach, and the Irish RIRA). Of course, lots of religiously-motivated violence is committed by people who aren’t members of actual terrorist groups, such as the Nigerian rioters of the OP and Hindu mobs in India.

Since only about a fifth of the world population is Muslim, Muslims almost certainly constitute disproportionately many of the perpetrators of acts of terrorism and sectarian violence nowadays. It’s tough to pin down any exact numbers, but that sounds to me like a fair assessment.

However, that is a hell of a long way away from argumentum ab ano assertions like “almost every act of terrorism is committed by Muslims”, and “Muslims are the ones causing all the trouble”, and calling Islam as a whole “hateful” or “intolerant”.

In the course of history, members of one religious group or another have often been disproportionately responsible for the total amount of bad stuff in the world. That doesn’t justify jumping to the simplistic conclusion that that religion must be intrinsically bad. Nor do we have any right to skew the picture by ignoring significant amounts of bad stuff committed by members of other religious groups.

Kimsu: I’ve said it before and i’ll say it again. unless you’re going into an abortion clinic or are at a homosexual’s funeral, you have nothing to worry about from christians. The same cannot be said about muslims - nobody is safe from them, no matter where you are.

Maybe after a few more september 11th’s (caused by muslims following the teachings of their scripture) you’ll begin to see things my way. The problem is, by the time there is another attack on America, a vast majority of americans will have already forgotten about september 11th.

Also, I realize other religious groups (primarily christians) have done bad things in the past. I’m focusing on the present. November 2002. It’s interesting to read about all the horrible things christians did in the name of christ hundreds of years ago, but that’s no justification for what muslims do NOW. Right now, Muslims are the ones causing all the trouble. Don’t invoke “history” as a justification for the actions of today.

I didn’t say they were hateful or intollerant (but some islamic ‘laws’ that I have heard about seem to be extremely intollerant) I said the majority of muslims are probably peace-loving .

I didn’t say that. I said this…

there’s a Big difference. please don’t misquote me (if you were quoting me)- it might make people think I am just another biggot. I don’t want people to think that. I am a person who normally tolerates most things, but his having trouble tolerating islam lately.
I stand by my belief that there is something wrong with Islam (and most other religeons) I never said “intrinsically bad” I said “something wrong with”

Again - there’s a big difference.

Religeon has probably done the world more good than bad. I believe the human race has evolved to a point where it doesn’t need religeon and religeon is a hinderance.

Arse - my post went onto the next page.

Again - please go easy on me - I find it very hard not to resort to defensiveness when people undermine me or are not polite when they prove me wrong (not that anyone has so far)

That is why I rarely post in GD.

Kimstu: You make some interesting points. I don’t think most people on the “Islam-criticizing” (for lack of a better term) side of this deabte are implying that Islam as a religion is intrinsically bad. Of course, saying “almost every act of terrorism is committed by Muslims” is foolish, but that is not what most people argue. My perspective at least is that Islam, or even Islamic texts, is not the problem. However, modern Islamic political culture, particularly outside of liberal countries, is extremely problematic. It should say something to you that over 50% of recognized terrorist groups are Muslim groups, despite their comprising only 1/5 of the world’s population. So it’s likewise foolish to say, “yeah, Muslims have their problems, but Jewish and Christian and atheist groups are just as dangerous”, because they’re not. What percent of Jews do you think support Shas? And what percent of Muslims do you think support Hamas? Even fundamentalist Christians like Falwell and Robertson have expressed their disapproval of abortion clinic bombings; basically, ISTM that our nuts are a lot more fringe than theirs.

Of course this wasn’t always the case. I’m willing to bet that in the year 1200 Christians caused way more problems for world peace than Muslims. But that’s not relevant to today, so it doesn’t matter. How many fundamentalist Christian countries can you name? I guarantee you you can name more fundamentalist Islamic countries. And most of the Islamic countries that aren’t run by fundamentalists are run by secular thugs and unelected autocrats.

To me, your argument sounds a lot like saying the day before the Enlightenment or the Reformation started, “Why do you think things need to change so much? Obviously some Christians are doing some bad stuff, but you can’t lump everybody into one bag. I mean other religious groups are causing problems too.” Looking back at history, that would appear a ridiculous statement to make, and I don’t see how an analogous statement can be made now.

Lobsang: *“almost every act of terrorism is committed by Muslims”
—I didn’t say that. I said this… almost every act of terrorism is committed by islamic terrorists

there’s a Big difference.*

Not that big. I understand that you want to avoid sounding as though you were saying “all Muslims are terrorists”, and I didn’t think you were saying that. But you were saying that almost every act of terrorism is committed by terrorists who are Muslims, as opposed to terrorists who are non-Muslims.

I’m not accusing you of bigotry, I’m just pointing out that the “almost every” description is wrong. A significant portion of the world’s terrorist (and sectarian) violence is committed by **non-**Muslims. In other words, we have to be careful about tossing around expressions like “all” and “almost all” and “the vast majority”, etc., since they frequently misrepresent the situation.

I stand by my belief that there is something wrong with Islam (and most other religeons) I never said “intrinsically bad” I said “something wrong with”

That’s okay, if the shoe doesn’t fit you you don’t have to wear it. If you have a personal belief that there’s something wrong with religion in general, that’s not relevant to bias against Islam in particular.

Fang: To me, your argument sounds a lot like saying the day before the Enlightenment or the Reformation started, “Why do you think things need to change so much?”

Hey, who says I’m saying things don’t need to change? I am thrilled to see this thread moving to a serious, thoughtful discussion of why Islamic extremism is disproportionately represented in terrorist organizations, and what the ideological differences are in different strains of world Islam, and how the political cultures of different countries affect that, and what needs to happen to reduce violence associated with Islamic extremism. Have at it!

What I don’t like is mindless bashing of Islam in general, that merely seizes on every detectable incident of violence by Muslims as an excuse to cackle “Ha ha! See how uncivilized and violent and intolerant and barbaric Islam is?” That’s when we need to be reminded that Muslims aren’t the only source of problems in the world.

A muslim is an islamic person (don’t let the politically correct gerbil in your head get excited… it’s true. A jew is a jewish person, etc.). A person who commits an act of terrorism is a terrorist. There is absolutely no difference between “muslim” and “islamic terrorists” when both terms are describing people who are committing terrorist actions.

The bottom line: If I said Jesus supports the Miss America Contest, how many people will die at the hands/guns of rioting christians? Zero. Even if I went all out and said Jesus was an abortion doctor, I doubt anyone other than myself would get hurt.

[hijack]
BTW, Damascene, could you provide a cite for your claim that Muslims regard Jesus as the Messiah? I was under the impression that Muslims consider Jesus a prophet, like Muhammad or Elijah, rather than the Messiah as Christians do.
[/hijack]

Sept 11 wasn’t caused by muslims following their scripture. Islam specifically forbids suicide. So Sept 11 was actually caused by “muslims” going against their scripture.

Likewise, a lot of what the Taliban got up to didn’t have much to do with what it says in the Koran.

Well, Lobsang we have Boermag, a white supremacist ( that believe white racial supremacy has been ordained by the Christian God ) terrorist group in South Africa, that has been referred to as the “Afrikaaner al-Qaeda”. We have the LiberationTamil Tigers of Eelam ( mostly Hindu with some Christians, Anglican and Catholic mostly, fighting the predominantly Buddhist Sinhalese majority ) in Sri Lanka, who have been credited with committing more suicide bombings than any other terrorist organization in the world. Plus a small Sinhalese counter-group of domestic terrorists in Sri Lanka, who, among other things, bombed the offices a Norwegian children’s charity and Norway’s embassy to protest Norway’s mediation efforts in that civil war. We have the various splinter groups off the IRA , like the Real IRA and assorted Protestant hard-liners like Red Hand Defenders in Northern Ireland. We have both the leftist militias and right-wing paramilitaries in Colombia engaging in bombings and murder of civilians ( and similarly, though less widespread in Ecuador, including multiple bombings of theTrans-Ecuador pipeline, which has killed a number of bystanders ). We have the nominally Christian ( though their theology is a bit muddled ) Lord’s Resistance Army conducting guerilla war and terrorist activity in northern Uganda. We have the ( ostensibly Buddhist, but rather syncretic ) Aum Shinrikyo and the Japanese Red Army in Japan. Terrorist acts by Burmese ( seizure of hostages in a Thai hotel ), Laotian ( bombing of tourist spots ), Cambodian, and Vietnamese anti-government dissidents. In the Phillipines, in addition to the Moro Liberation Front and Abu Sayyaf groups, we still see Communist rebels holding on and attacking foreign civilians. We have the ETA and the leftist GRAPO in Spain. In France the Breton Resistance Army that bombed a McDonalds and several Corsican separatist groups that are fond of bombing government offices. In Greece the groups Revolutionary Organization 17 November and Revolutionary Nuclei. In Italy the Red Brigades. We even have the Jewish extremist Kach and Kahane Chai in Israel, who are on the U.S. State Department’s official terrorist organization list. and etc.

So terrorism is everywhere and, no, it is not all Islamist in nature.

That said, an awful lot of it is. Of 40-odd ( 43? ) groups listed by the State Dept. as terrorist organizations here ( a 2000 report, perhaps slightly dated and I would say not exhaustive ): http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrpt/2000/2450.htm

…about 13 are explicitly Islamist by my count. Another half-dozen or so are Arab secular ( members are predominantly, but not exclusively, Muslim, but are not Islamists - i.e. most of the fragments of the PLO ) or have some more modest religious pretensions ( like the Mujaheddin e-Khalq in Iran, which is a rather more leftist than Islamist ). So a fair proportion. And certainly the main global threat these days as opposed to regional, at least vis-a-vis the west, is this loose network of radical Islamists.

So is Islam, as a religion, to blame for this high incidence? Probably in part. Islam is not a pacifist faith on the whole ( though there are many Muslim pacifists ). It was explicitly political from the get go and militant, at the very least in its defensive posture. Now whether it is inherently agressively violent as a matter of theology is another question. That has been debated at length by theologians both ancient and modern and more recently by schlubs by me. I have argued at length in other threads that ther consensus view in modern Islam is that it is not ( see for example this thread on the meaning of the word jihad: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=142731 ). However, it is undeniable that a minorioty, however large or small ( and despite Kalt’s blather I have never seen any indication that a majority of the planet’s one billion Muslims are interested, even theoretically, in launching a jihad against the west - I guess then according to Kalt most Muslims really aren’t Muslims at all ), does take the extremist view and probably at a higher percentage than any other faith. I would posit two reasons for this:

  1. Islam, being more explicitly militant theologically than other major world faiths, with its notion of armed defense of the Islamic community, is indeed more easily twisted to violence than some others. As has been pointed out, all religious ideologies ( and quite a few political ones ) can be so twisted. But I don’t think I’d quibble with the notion that it is a little easier in Islam than most.

  2. Islam has been for the most part been centered in what we today call the third world. It is a younger faith than its Judeo-Christian congeners and has in the last few centuries been mired ( for the most part and please note that this is an admitted gross generalization ) in poverty and ignorance. Modern notions of the integration of the relgious with the secular and an accomodation to new democratic ideals only started percolating in certain intellectual circles ( mostly Ottoman and in British India ) in the very late 18th century and to some extent took a beating during the post-WW I colonial phase in the ME. Islam, despite the reactionary backlash ( almost all of it of modern origin and a response to the Islamic world’s decline on the world stage during the era o European dominance ), is continuing to liberalize IMHO. Indeed part of the most recent reactionary backlash is, I think, a backlash against this progress. But progress is inevitable. Turkey need not be an aberration.

So we have confluence of circumstance and a somewhat more malleable ( in terms of justifications for violence ) faith. Now - Does the fact ( if it is, some might disagree ) that Islam is more easily turned to extremism in this day and age, sufficient to declare it and bankrupt and evil faith? Certainly not. You don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater and I’ve yet to see any evidence that most Muslims think it is just jim-dandy to go out and slaughter infidels left and right.

Is it sufficient to say there is something wrong with Islam? Judgement call. Personally I think there is something a little bit wrong with all religion, not believing in God, god’s, or any other element of spirituality myself. However who am I to judge how some people find comfort? At any rate, the proper response to issues of violent extremism in a faith is not to condemn the entire faith and label them all as ignorant, violent barbarians ( which they demonstrably are not ), thus giving ammunitions to those very extremists, but rather to support the non-extremists. The Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa used to lend theological support to apartheid ( especially in the period of 1948-1978, but lagging into the early 90’s ). Today it does not ( it finally came out in 1997 with a statement saying that it rejected apartheid “as wrong and sinful not just in its effects and operations but in its fundamental nature.” ).

Or whatever Kimstu said ;).

  • Tamerlane

Not true, it is a clever quirk of logic whereby people can accuse me of saying muslims are terrorists, and then accuse me of being anit-muslim.

however, not all muslims are terrorists so I am not accusing muslims of being terrorists.

This is correct ( Jesus is a Prophet, not a Messiah that is, at least for most ). Though many Muslims do believe Jesus was occultated by God and will return in the end times to smite ( or otherwise defeat ) the anti-Christ and few ( a minority, I’d say ) conflate Jesus with the Mahdi, a messianic figure in Islamic eschatology. However Islamic eschatology is complicated and much disputed between various sects. See this thread for further discusion:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=113055

  • Tamerlane