Islam, the religion of peace...

“I’ve said it before and i’ll say it again. unless you’re going into an abortion clinic or are at a homosexual’s funeral, you have nothing to worry about from christians.”
This is largely true in the US and Western Europe(except Northern Ireland) but , as we keep repeating, it’s not true in the rest of the world. It was certainly not true for Muslims in the former Yugoslavia or Tutsis in Rwanda.

I would like a cite btw from those who claim that most terrorists killings are by Muslims. The LTTE alone is responsible for thousands of Sri Lankan civilians. There are also the Irish groups and various Latin American terror groups. Various Hindu extremist groups also have probably killed thousands of people in the last 20 years though they are not officially classified as terrorist groups.

And when you add killings from genocide the Muslim share is likely to fall even lower. Unquestionably the worst atrocity of the last ten years was in Rwanda with IIRC 600,000 dead much more than every single Muslim terror group combined.

Jojo: islam does not forbid suicide when Jihad-ing. It’s not suicide, it’s martyrdom. Even a blind, deaf, and dumb muslim child with down’s syndrome and no koran knows that. Every religion says “suicide is wrong” because to allow it means letting your paying customers kill themselves. That being said, no religion considers killing yourself for the religion’s cause (i.e. holy war) to be sinful “suicide” any more than the USA considers sending a soldier on a dangerous “suicide” mission to be wrongful suicide.

Religions need suicidal nuts to “spread the word of X.”

Lobsang: the following two sentences are equivalent (the second being redundant).

“almost every act of terrorism is committed by Muslims.”

“almost every act of terrorism is committed by Islamic terrorists.”

It’s true the Koran does contain “rules of war” which tell a muslim what to do should he happen to find himself in a war situation. But this doesn’t make Islam a more warlike religion as a result.

The Koran contains many such sets of rules - rules of banking, of law, etc. It doesn’t tell muslims to make war on “infidels” or anyone else for no reason.

In fact, didn’t Muhammed view the Koran as the third book in a trilogy, the first two being the Old and New Testaments and therefore christians and jews are looked on as brothers who just need to be brought on a little bit?

I find it hard to believe that they tried to hold the Miss World thing in Nigeria in the first place. It’s hardly a suprise that it’s led to trouble. Of all the countries in the world to hold a parade of scantily clad young women, they decide to hold it in a country which is a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism.

Sheesh, it beggars belief.

oh heck. I have been drinking (celebrating the fact that I will not see my boss again for about a month) so my own logic/ability to make sense of a post is limited. (this applies to my previous post)

you can twist what I say everywhichway to make yourself look clever.

But the fact remains - all I am saying is that religeons must be flawed (islam more than others), and there must be something wrong with islam if it’s fundementalists (stricter followers) commit such horrible acts.

If terrorism is not a mostly islamic thing. then why is it so blatantly and utterly the islamic terrorists that make the news? do the news networks have something against the religeon of islam?

And while we are at it - is there any other religeon that so widely enforces ‘rules’ that involve the stoning (and killing) of women who do things that would be completely tolerated in non-islamic societies.

being drunk (and therefore more right-wing than usuall) I say that it is pretty obvious that islam is a dangerous religeon. And anyone who says it is totally peaceful is deluding themselves.

I am going to regret this in the morning… (ohhh)

Kalt

You nearly understand the muslim position on suicide but not quite.

Yes the rules of war laid out in the Koran allow suicide but only in specific circumstances ie when you are defending your house (and, by extension, your country). This is why the Palestinians can claim they are acting within the confines of Islam.

But you are not allowed to use suicide as an offensive weapon and certainly not in another country. It is purely a defensive weapon.

The al qaeda boys broke the rules of Islam by going to another country to commit suicide so, according to mainstream Islam, they are going to Hell.

http://www.sinhaya.com/Massacres.htm
BTW here is a list of LTTE killings of civlians over the last 20 years. It doesn’t give the total but it’s easily in the thousands. After 9-11 Al Qaeda may now have more but the LTTE is probably deadlier than any other Muslim group and probably deadlier than many of them combined. And all this mind you on an island of just 15-20 million people. (The site is a Sinhalese cite but the list does match roughly with other reports I have seen so I don’t see much of a reason to doubt it)

And then are all those other groups on Tamerlane’s list. So I would really like to see a count of killings by Muslim groups compared with non-Muslim groups from those claiming that most terrorist killings are by Muslims.

Jojo: “Defensive” is a very malleable word. When the great satan (aka the USA) is against Islam and trying to destroy it, it is certainly a “defensive action” to crash airplanes into the buildings of the great satan. After all, the great satan started it, and the martyrs are just defending islam (as the koran tells them to).

When you die for islam, you’re a martyr and you get your 72 raisins. Simple, really.

Well by gosh, it depends what those rules of war are. If they say “turn the other cheek and don’t strike anyone, love your enemies” then I’d agree with you. But I think we both know it doesn’t say that. Far, far from it. It tells them which hands and arms to cut off, which legs to smash, and how many rocks should be thrown during a stoning execution. When they read that, “Knowing” that it is the word of allah, then there’s absolutely no doubt that it makes Islam a more war-like religion as a result. It makes them absolutely insane, come to think of it.

This is incorrect or at least incomplete. If the argument you are making is that all Muslims believe that suicide bombers go to heaven, then you are wrong. There is no such consensus.

*Suicide bombing by young mis-informed Muslim youths has been carried out almost routinely as a mean of revenge in the Middle East conflict. It is mainly done to avenge their oppression, occupation and loss of freedom they have been experiencing all their life. It is carried out by the youth who lost all the hope to a peaceful settlement as they witnessed their families, loved ones, neighbors, and the innocent bystanders die or tortured at the hand of a merciless occupying force. Despite these intolerable situation no permission can be found in Islam to avenge by suicide bombing or by targeting the innocent civilians. These young desperate Muslim youth have been taught what is NOT in the Quran, and what was never promised by God in the Holy book. *

From: http://www.submission.org/jihad/suicide.html
*Question
What is the ruling regarding acts of jihaad by means of suicide, such as attaching explosives to a car and storming the enemy, whereby he knows without a doubt that he shall die as a result of this action?

Response
Indeed, my opinion is that he is regarded as one who has killed himself (committed suicide), and as a result he shall be punished in Hell, for that which is authenticated on the authority of the Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam).*

From: http://www.fatwa-online.com/fataawa/worship/jihaad/jih004/0001027_2.htm

also: http://www.fatwa-online.com/fataawa/worship/jihaad/jih004/0010915_1.htm

Or we have the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheik Abdulaziz al-Sheik, who issued a fatwa that said that “any act of self killing or suicide is strictly forbidden in Islam” and consequently “the one who blows himself up in the midst of the enemies is also performing an act contrary to Islamic teachings.”

Of course there are many who do justify suicide-bombing in relgious terms. But unqualified comments are nobody’s friend.

This is simply factually false, with no equivocation.

lobsang:

But of a strawman, as I don’t think many are making that argument.

jojo:

I quite agree. It just makes it a little easier in the abstract for nutjobs like ObL to justify targeting civilians by claiming that U.S. citizens are de facto combatants because they pay taxes supporting ( in his view ) a regime that attacks and oppresses Muslims. But I think very few Muslims think like he does and lest I was unclear I think this malleability is only a matter of degree compared to other faiths. Like, I said, you can twist anything, given enough effort. Witness the Christian Identity Movement.

  • Tamerlane

  • Tamerlane

“If terrorism is not a mostly islamic thing. then why is it so blatantly and utterly the islamic terrorists that make the news?”
This is a good question. How come Palestinian terrorism against Israelis makes the front pages but Tamil terrorism against Sri Lankans is almost completely ignored. I suspect that it has to do with the fact that Israel is a rich,Western country. More charitably you could argue that the Arab-Israeli conflict is politically more important than the Sinhalese-Tamil conflict. It is not however an indication that Tamil terrorism is any less deadly than the Palestinians.

Hmm Kalt, ever considered valium?

Let’s start from the beginning of your post (a very good place to start).

Who says the USA is trying to destroy Islam? Nobody believes this not even al qaeda.

The “Great Satan” stuff was used by some people in Iran for a while to stir up trouble but nobody really believes it (apart from a few extremists).

Iran is quite a western-leaning country in fact.

No it isn’t. You didn’t read my previous post carefully enough.

The koran tells them they can use suicide to defend their house not to defend Islam. This by necessity means that the attackers must be on your land knocking at your door.

Only if you die in the prescribed manner, otherwise it’s just plain old suicide and you lose the raisins and go straight to Hell.

As regards your last paragraph, you don’t understand my point.

Just because the Koran contains rules of war doesn’t mean anything unless a muslim happens to find himself in a war. If anything, having rules of war could be a civilising influence.

Christians have no such rules and are therefore far more unpredictable in a war situation. At least you know where you are with a muslim.

Well, not to defend Kalt ( heaven forbid! ), But I might disagree here. I think at least some of the more extreme jihadists-salafists believe just that. Or at least that the U.S, is seeking to permanently keep down Islam. Of course I also think ObL is an opportunist and really is most interested in setting himself up as the theocrat of Saudi Arabia and will use carefully planted religious rhetoric to push himself closer to this endpoint. But those two goals aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive. One can be ( derangedly ) pious and a megalomaniac at the same time.

Otherwise I agree with you.

  • Tamerlane

Tamerlane,

I have no doubt that OBL and his followers believe that the US is trying to keep down militant Islam. But Kalt didn’t say this, Kalt asserted that there is a belief that the US is actually trying to destroy Islam.

I disagree with this statement, I don’t think anyone believes the US is trying to destroy Islam.

quote:
Originally posted by Kimstu


It completely baffles me how someone can believe such sweeping generalizations in the face of all the counterexamples. For Pete’s sake, only a little more than seven years ago, two American Christians with close ties to white supremacist groups such as “Christian Identity” blew up a building in Oklahoma, with casualties 15–20% of the total casualties from the World Trade Center attack. How can that just have totally fallen off our radar screen when we think about who is responsible for terrorism?


The Oklahoma federal building bombing was not a religious act. It was not done in the name of God. The two men were not religious. It was not done to kill blacks, mexicans and jews. The two guys were not part of a terrorist group. It was just them.

There is something very scary about people who kill for GOD much more so than political reasons. It seems crazy to kill for god at least in this present day and age.

I listened to a report on NPR this evening. A correspondent in Nigera was caught by the crowd and asked if he was a Christian. He was able to save his life only by shouting “Allahu akbar” over and over again. He explained that Nigerian muslims were offended by the indecency of the Miss World contest and the suggestion that Mohammad might have chosen one of the contestants has his bride. It was a very sobering report. I presume but don’t know that he was in fact muslim. I hope I would have the strength to not deny my God if I were in that situation.

Some time ago Martin Scorsese made a film about Jesus having a fantasy about being married to Mary Magdeline. I was not personally offended by it but many other Christians were deeply offended by the movie’s message. I did a Google search and was unable to find where exactly the massive rioting took place and if more than a hundred were killed as in Nigeria.

Or the example of the “Piss Christ” piece of “art” where a Crucifix was displayed in a jar of urine. A great many Christians, fundalmentalists and non-fundalmentalists alike, were offended. The result? TWO attacks against the exhibit itself (which were bad, destruction of property, violent, etc.) and rescinding some museum funding.

Rather unlike riots where 100+ were murdered and 500+ were injured.

Why the difference, and why isn’t anyone willing to discuss it?

Hmmm…I rather thought we have in innumerable threads.

If you mean why doesn’t everybody agree with your viewpoint…Well, I dunno. Can’t help you there ;).

  • Tamerlane

Actually, shouting “Allahu Akbar” doesn’t really constitute denying ones God for a Christian. It’s just “God is Great” in Arabic–Arab-speaking Christians refer to the God of the Holy Trinity as “Allah”.

When this film was released in France, a movietheater in Paris was fire-bombed (with the people inside) by christian fundamentalists. I believe nobody was killed, though. It was the last theater screening the movie, all the others having renunced before due to the threats, protests, blockadings, etc…

Not necessarily. But they have something about reporting the news which are the most likely to interest their public. A plane crashing in your country will be all over the medias for a long time. A plane crashing in another western country will be covered. A plane crashing in India barely mentionned.

Same with terrorist acts. If they’re directed against the US (assuming you’re american) , or at least related to an issue the US is currently involved in, they are way more likely to be be lenghtily reported (and also much more likely to be remembered) than if they occur in some remote country over a dispute the US isn’t involved in.

I’m rather of two minds about this increasingly-popular debate topic. On the one hand, it’s foolish to paint a religion with a billion+ adherents as a monolithic anything–a monolithic religion of holy war or a monolithic religion of peace. That said, there seem to be outbreaks of Islamist fanaticism in an awful lot of the Muslim world, from Nigeria to parts of the Arab world to Afghanistan and Pakistan to Southeast Asia (the last of which regions has historically been characterized by the peaceful spread of Islam and a generally tolerant version of the religion there). I think Islam needs a Reformation or an Enlightenment or something. Without playing down the violent or bloody-minded aspects of Islamic history or scripture, I have to think that the spread of Christianity was historically associated with conquest, coercion, and imperialism as often as not, that the Christian Bible has its share of passages which can be used to justify violence, that Christian cultures have been rife with racism or the oppression of women, and that for most of the history of Christianity most Christians believed that matters of religious belief were properly the subject of some degree of coercion. Yet these days the vast majority of Christians seem to sincerely support full freedom of religion, equality of rights and opportunity for all, and although there have been exceptions, theocratically-motivated violence has generally been pretty rare in mainly or historically Christian areas in recent times. Somehow radical Muslims need to be dragged kicking and screaming–no doubt by their fellow Muslims, especially at first–into a world where some of their fellow Muslims will adopt new ideas about the relation between mosque and state and religion and morality and revelation and science; where some of their fellow Muslims will become purely nominal Muslims; where some of their fellow Muslims will become outright atheists, or convert to strange new religions and “cults”; and where theologically conservative Muslims will have to adapt to all this just as theologically conservative Christians have been forced to adapt.

Just a speculation, but one source for a new more tolerant form of Islam might be Iran. The Iranian people have already seen the “Islamic Republic” and “Islamic law” for going on a quarter of a century now, and a lot of them seem pretty fed up with it. Unlike the even more repressively theocratic Saudi Arabia, the opposition in Iran doesn’t seem to contain large numbers of people who consider the regime to be excessively liberal. There are still those in Iran trying to fashion “Islamism with a human face” (and of course hardliners trying to resist reform), but I wonder if many Iranians aren’t already beyond that point, to the point where the “Islamic Republic” of Iran may wind up being about as theocratic as the “Christian Kingdom” of England is–or, if the mullahs really blow it, it may simply be the “Republic of Iran”, with a democratic and secular government of a country which happens to have a Muslim majority. And Iran has at least some religious diversity, which could help the process along: in addition to the majority Shi’ite population, there is a Sunni minority; there are a couple of indigenous varieties of Christians (Armenian and Assyrian, I believe), I think still some Zoroastrians, and even a few Jews, all officially protected by the current regime; and of course the Ba’hais, who are not officially tolerated.

It’s also foolish to see every Muslim in the West as being part of some sort of Fifth Column. Yes, unfortunately some Muslim immigrants to the West have been driven into the Islamist camp. But we shouldn’t underestimate the seductions of Western culture. One hopes Westernized Muslims could become a kind of “vaccine”, remaining Muslim but spreading ideas about freedom of conscience and secular governments with equal justice for all back to the “old country(ies)”. (It’s also foolish to claim that Muslims and Christians who aren’t bloodthirsty theocrats aren’t “true” Muslims or Christians–systems of belief with a billion or two human beings adhering to them will inevitably have a lot of diversity in them, and systems of belief also inevitably change and evolve over time. Conversely, the claim that the fanatic and violent Muslims aren’t true Muslims is also usually pretty silly.)

So, anyway, long-windedly: Yes, there is a pretty widespread, even maybe systemic problem in the Islamic world right now, just as there have been nasty periods in Christian history. No, Islam isn’t just a religion of peace with some tiny handful of extremists and anyway what about abortion clinic bombers and Northern Ireland? But, I don’t think Islam is also inevitably a “religion of jihad”. Finally, though, to transform Islam, a lot of people must be made to understand that Islam is open to criticism and debate, and that riots aren’t the answer to newspaper columns–and neither are frantic efforts at self-censorship.