Islands must be smaller than continents?

Well, to further confuse matters, there are areas of oceanic crust on the continents, such as in eastern Panama, which were uplifted from the ocean floor. So what are those, islands? Oceans? In fact, it doesn’t make any sense to classify landmasses as continents or islands based on the composition of the crust. “Continental crust” was named that because it makes up most of the continents; to work backward and classify islands as continents merely because they are made of the same kind of rock has no particular logic to it. It doesn’t mean that landmasses made of continental crust should be called continents. If you have “no patience with arbitrary classification schemes,” you’re not going to improve matters with the one you suggested.

The thing is, the idea of what a continent is has evolved over time. In the ancient world, they were simply broad geographical areas distributed around the Mediterranean, which happened to be separated by minor seas (Red and Black) or the Strait of Gibraltar. It didn’t matter whether or not they were surrounded by water, or connected in some distant region like Europe and Asia were.

It was only with the discovery of the Americas that “continent” began to take on its modern meaning. People became aware that these landmasses were similar in size to the known continents. At the same time it also became evident that Africa was mostly surrounded by water. “Continent” began to be understood as referring to a major land mass mostly surrounded by water (even though Europe and Asia were broadly connected). It should be noted that the classification of what is and is not a continent varies culturally; Latin American geographers (and I believe many Europeans) consider the Americas to be a single continent whereas we divide them into two.

Once Australia and Antarctica were discovered the term “continent” was extended to them as well, based on the new concept. (It helped that they were both completely isolated from the other continents.) Finally, this concept was applied retroactively, and many geographers began to lump two of the classical continents together as Eurasia.

In deciding the final number of continents, I think there has been a tendency to consider that they must be comparable in size to the original three continents. Hence there is some ambivalence about Australia, which is slightly smaller than Europe. Greenland and other large islands are clearly much smaller, and so have never been considered continents.

The result is that we have a semi-scientific overlay on what was originally a purely arbitrary classification. This prompts people to try to make the definition even more scientific. Personally I think this is rather pointless.

The progression in classification from classical to semi-scientific is echoed in the classification of the planets. The ancients knew of five planets, which were simply stars that moved. The Earth was not one of them. Once the nature of the classical planets became known, the original concept was changed completely so that it included the Earth. The definition has changed and evolved further as the asteroids and Kuiper belt objects have been discovered. The first asteroids discovered were considered planets, as was the first Kuiper belt object, Pluto. As more and more such objects were discovered, astronomers tinkered with the definitions in order not to have “too many” planets, resulting in the recent demotion of Pluto. But these are still arbitrary classifications, even if put in scientific terms.

What about this island, Earth? Huh? Huh?

Let’s call it a dwarf continent, and insist that despite the name it’s not actually any kind of continent at all.

If Australia is to be called a Dwarf Continent, then I suggest that based on Peter Jackson’s Epic Travelogue Trilogy for the New Zealand Board fo Tourism we should refer to New Zealand as a “Hobbit Continent”.

Confessions:

First, I actually not only have patience for arbitrary classification schemes–I clearly love them!

Second, as long as I’m being called on things like uplifted oceanic crust, I’ll also concede that large parts of the margins of continents are underlain by accreted material instead of “true” continental crust. So if you really want to hit me over the head with my own definitions, you’ll force me to make absurd conclusions such as “Oregon is not on a continent” and “Florida is actually ‘on’ Africa”.

How about this for New Zealand, Madagascar, the Seychelles, and even Australia: Islands-fomerly-part-of-Pangea? They can be islands that woefully reminisce about the days when they were part of something really big.

So, I yield. Just don’t tell my geography pals.

No, they knew seven planets – the Sun, the Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn.

And the 19th-century demotion of Ceres.

Cite, please, that they referred to the Sun and Moon specifically as planets? The word is derived from the Greek planetes asteres, or “wandering stars.” The Sun and Moon were not classified as stars, so they were not planets. Both were unique objects that also moved through the heavens. The planets differed from other stars mainly in the fact that they moved about.

And Vesta, Juno, and Pallas as well. From here:

Yes. I’ve just driven from Broome to Adelaide following the coast. It took us two and a half weeks (with plenty of stops) and we covered about 6400 kms. You know you’re traveling around a bloody big country when you feel like you’re getting close to your destination when the road sign says “Adelaide 1986 Km.”

Or simply planetois, “wanderers”.

Though my English copy of the Syntaxis uses the phrase “the sun, the moon, and the planets”, a simple Google on “the seven planets” turns up a host of pre-Copernican instances of “planet” being used inclusively.

Galileo, Huygens, and Cassini originally referred to their newly discovered satellites of Jupiter and Saturn as “planets”, too.

Sorry, I’m not seeing “a host of pre-Copernican instances” on that search, at least not on the first few pages. In any case, my original statement that “the ancients knew of five planets” was not incorrect, since a distinction was frequently made between the Sun, the Moon, and the five planetes asteres.

Once you guys settle this you can move on to Pluto, planet or not?

:slight_smile:

Also what is an Island? A land mass surround by all sides on water.

I mean if you look at the Eastern USA. It has the Atlantic on the East, the Gulf of Mexico on the South, the Mississippi river and the Illinois river up to Chicago (through the Chicago River) and Lake Michigan to the West. Then you have the rest of the Great Lakes and the St Lawrence River till you’re back again at the Atlantic. It’s surrounded by water on all sides

:slight_smile:

Maybe there should be something in there about the water being present in naturally occurring bodies of water. Otherwise, anytime a medieval lord put a moat around his castle, he was creating an island.

In this particular example, the canal connecting the Chicago and Illinois rivers isn’t naturally occurring.

Depends on your definition of planet.

One could always define planets the way we define continents: by listing the things that have been considered continents for long enough that we’re used to that particular list, and defining those as the complete set. Europe, Asia, Africa, North America, South America, Antarctica, Australia; Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto.

There’s really nothing wrong with defining either set by that means. It’s completely arbitrary, but it suffices.

The problem with both continents and planets is coming up with a less arbitrary, more justifiable rule that agrees with our lists. (And the reason that’s the problem is that people are attached to the lists, but scientists tend to want something less arbitrary and more justifiable. Coming up with a less arbitrary rule is easy; just using the list is easy.) How do you come up with a rule that includes Pluto without including a bunch of similarly-sized Kuiper Belt Objects? And while there’s no problem in excluding other things you want to exclude from the set of continents by excluding Greenland, it’s still somewhat arbitrary that we’ve placed the cutoff between Australia and Greenland.

[never mind]

I’d say he was. Not an oceanic island of course, unless it happened to be in Panama :slight_smile:

There’s nothing stopping you from driving coast to coast in Canada. It simply takes a while.

Malta?

I think they speak english on malta, not italian.

I think they speak Maltese and English; Maltese isn’t anything like Italian.

Maybe he means Pantelleria or Lampedusa?

It’s suffering from Pluto syndrome.

Pantelleria it is!