I was saying the pledge. Something I’ve never been terribly comfortable with, even as a child. I introduced many of my classmates to a whole new world when they realized they didn’t have to say the pledge. I had never taken World History which was a Sophomore class, so I took it as a Senior, and the sophomores suddenly found out they didn’t have to because I didn’t.
It struck me as very odd today, to pledge allegiance to an inanimate object. Oh yeah…and to the republic for which it stands also. I’m more disturbed by the fact that I have to pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth than I am by the “Under God” statement.
There are other reasons I’m bothered. Other than it’s state indoctrination, and being forced to pledge allegiance to anything is a violation of my freedom. Another reason I am bothered is because it is idolatry, a sin that I am profoundly against. I don’t like the idea of the “one nation under god”, because we are under god, within god, over god, through god, next to god, before god, after god, parallel to god, etc… Next because it is clearly a battle march telling us not to stop until the entire world is united under a single flag. Another because if it is “One Nation under God indivisible” then 50 stars certainly do not represent that ideal, as it gives preference to a very small portion of the globe. If there is only “One nation under God” then why am I pledging allegiance to anything, there is no competitor, therefore I don’t need to ally myself with it. if I am doing it “with liberty and justice for all.”, how can I force liberty? If I am being forced then it is a violation of MY liberty. Giving liberty to everyone seems like a pretty passive gesture to me. All I have to do to provide liberty is NOT FORCE MY WILL on anyone else. If everyone did that, then there would be liberty and justice for all. An active gesture such as the pledge seems to be anathema to that.
Does anyone else specifically find the pledge disturbing for any reason other than the “Under God” part?
Not that I’ve ever done it, but I always find the concept of pledging allegiance anything to be strange. And reading your post I can see why.
In the UK, nobody gives a monkey’s about the Union Flag, except when there’s an international football match on or if you’re trying to run some dirty foreigners out of town. And the Irish flag is hardly revered at all.
The only pledging I know that takes place in the UK (except when doing the polishing at home…) is when someone enlists in the armed forces. But the allegiance pledged is to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second (and probably her successors?). Which is probably just as bad.
How are you being forced if, by your own words, you just chose not to say it?
Besides, it’s just a pledge of loyalty to your nation, nothing more. I always thought that “one nation under god” meant that we are one united nation, not that we are the one and only nation in the world. The piece of cloth is just a symbol for the nation, which is what you’re really supposed to be loyal to. Of course it’s state indoctrination. There’d be no state left if you can’t convince people to be the state.
If you don’t like the god crap, just don’t recite that part. It’s a leftover from the days when the imaginary friend in the sky meant more to us. And it’s still there to please the fundies that run the country.
As for other freedoms, you’re always giving up some freedoms in exchange for others. The government removes your freedom to kill people so that everybody may enjoy their freedom to live. The government asks you to be part of the nation so that the people, as a whole, can enjoy the benefits that nationhood brings. If the government didn’t limit anything, sure, you’d be “free” in a sense, but you’d probably also be dead, killed by the first person with more power than you. It’s just anarchy.
On the other hand, if none of that appeals to you… you’re always free to immigrate to another country. You won’t be bound by American laws and practices, then, unless you have a big oil reserve.
America took over the world. Moving out of America is damn near impossible. There are a few holdouts, but not really. Everywhere is America.
Now that we have that idiotic argument out of the way.
Well, I am specifically talking about pledging. And there were different schools of thought on it. When I was younger and more easily compelled to say the pledge it was different, but when I was 17, I was pretty free not to, but I can imagine a teacher other than the one I had making it into an issue. I was compelled at different times in school however.
However, I do have more of an issue with pledging allegiance to a flag than I would to the country itself. It would be less of an issue if it were pledging allegiance to the United States of America and not a silly flag. To me a flag’s purpose is merely to claim land in wartime, past that it has little purpose, the fact that it’s flying all over the place is kind of disturbing.
I don’t have a problem with the under God part except that it is once again implying subservience to a nebulous authority. I believe in God, so that’s not so much of an issue. My issue with “under God” had more to do with it sounding like nonsense when applying a term like “under” to “God” as though “God” has a specific physical location. It seems more like subtle indoctrination to the state’s authority to say “under God” as though we are to believe that our leaders are guided by God.
The wording also says “With liberty and justice for all.” it doesn’t say “with liberty and justice for all Americans”. I mean sure, you can say that it’s just a simple pledge of allegiance to your people, but I don’t think it’s that, and the fact that 5 year olds are being compelled to say it, shows something deeper to me.
Yes, we have to give up some freedoms to have a society, but I think we passed the point of too many freedoms a long time ago.
I’m sure mswas realizes it’s a symbolic thing. She’s just pointing out the absurdity that it entails.
It would be similar to what the alien spies are telling their overlords when they make their reports. “The inhabitants of the middling land mass place one of their primary appendages on their upper midsections and swear fealty to a multicolored piece of cloth. Short slaves secure one end of this cloth to a wire, but do not secure the other side. They then fasten this cloth to a stationary pole that would not move even if the other end of the cloth were secured.”
Hmmm… I guess I’ll be tearing up my passport now. Won’t be needing that silly thing any more. Oh by the way, we expected the French to surrender but those Russians are a tough bunch. How’d we sneak this one by them so quietly?
Indeed.
As for the pledge, just don’t say it. Nobody gets hauled off to jail for not saying it. Do they? I agree with one aspect of it though. When I see my kids standing up and reciting it during their school assemblies, it does send a shiver down my spine. Those Nazi youth film documentaries start flashing through my mind.
American global economic hegemony is what I mean by having taken over the world. Rolling tanks through is so early 20th century, and isn’t even necessary. We use our economic clout to affect policy of other countries all the time.
Well, the drug war specifically is the one that most concerns me. The draft is another that comes to mind. The ability to walk around naked. The requirement to purchase expensive insurance, because we are afraid of being sued. Those are all ways in which I do not feel free. Our parties get shut down by cops pretty regularly. Thats a violation of my freedom. And it’s not because of neighbors that really care about the noise in a lot of cases. Sometimes they are out in the middle of the woods, sometimes they are in remote warehouses in industrial zones, and in one case it was on a boat in the middle of the bay, and the coast guard shut it down.
McDonald’s and CNN are all over the globe. American movies are watched everywhere in the world except for maybe North Korea.
Man, you missed out. Yesterday was the day they were passing out the tinfoil hats for free. Too bad they ran out today huh? Nothing to shield you from the mind bullets when you are reciting the pledge
Sure, start a new thread if you like. I’d love to hear you expound on your notion of freedom as doing anything you damn well please, with no consequences.
And if your friend was dumb enough to be a modern day Jane Fonda, he earned whatever’s coming to him. He had to know going over was illegal, so I’d hate to let him off the hook and disappoint him.
I feel kinda sorry for the OP- everyone’s jumping on him for his opinion (I notice this is, in fact, in IMHO)… and now I see the dreaded “tinfoil hat” phrase has been introduced.
Maybe he didn’t express himself clearly enough- he thinks it’s creepy that we Americans pledge allegiance to a FLAG. And he’s right- it is kinda creepy. I owe that piece of cloth NOTHING. It bothered me back in school, and it bothers me now- the flag is just a symbol, and nothing more. Pledging allegiance to a symbol is not, in my opinion, a good thing- it detracts from the actual pledge itself, and makes the symbol the focus of the allegiance. I’m sure a lot of kids are confused by this.
Of course, I also think that rote recitation of a pledge diminishes any allegiance since it’s nothing but blatant propaganda being forced on children while they’re easily impressionable (and it is forced- if only by peer pressure and peer expectation), but that’s just me.
Incubus: Invoking the Tin-Foil hat implies that anything I said isn’t true. Everything I talked about is common knowledge. If you doubt that anything I said is true then please let me know. If you dispute that CNN has a conspiracy to bring the news to every country in the world, please show me why you think so. Otherwise, stop being a troll.
Mr. Moto: My definition of freedom is being able to do anything I damn well please that does not hurt other people. Like walking around naked outside, or smoking pot. I could go in to detail about how the drug war is FAR more damaging than the drugs themselves, but that would be a hijack. I’m not interested in starting another thread really. For the cite reading impaired, he left Iraq before the war started. There is a BIG difference between sitting in an enemy tank, and protesting impending violence. Knowing the difference might serve you well in your dealings in the future. Though, not knowing the difference in the first place might mean you’re too far gone.
Lightnin: As you can see from Incubus’ and Mr. Moto’s posts, that same peer pressure exists at any age. Our society is relatively devoid of adults. I also think that forcing the pledge on unsuspecting children diminishes it’s effectiveness. No wonder so many people grow up with so little respect for their country’s governmental process. We’re told it’s free while they are forcing it upon us.
As a nitpick, it’s not “One nation under God”. It’s “One nation, under God”.
Here’s the pledge,
“I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands; one nation, under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”
It’s not a “battle march telling us not to stop until the world is united under a single flag” He’s saying that our nation is one nation and it’s indivisible. Or, in Bellamy’s own words:
You don’t think that being stopped by the coast guard in the middle of the bay is a bit excessive? You don’t think being stopped in a warehouse in the middle of an industrial area is excessive? What about in the middle of a state park out in the middle of nowhere? What about permits being revoked at the last minute? What about permits not even being issued for street protests against the war? In my opinion, anyone that thinks this country is in any way free, is naive and sheltered. I’ve been stopped by cops and strip searched in the middle of the street. Is that something that happens in a “free” country? I mean how much limitations on our ability to do what we want are we supposed to expect? Should I be happy that I am free to buy a playstation and watch HBO? Is that what freedom means?
This ain’t a free country by any stretch of the imagination, and telling me that what I want to do isn’t important enough to be allowed freedom, isn’t exactly a compelling argument.
And twisting my words isn’t helpful. CNN and McD’s were examples of global hegemony not limits on freedom. I think that getting a nation’s propaganda to every corner of the globe is instrumental in hegemony.
