Israel 60 years: A very improper celebration indeed

The BBQ Pit
221

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
Well, there’s always wiki:
Rank/Country/Literacy Rate

56 Israel 97.1…
[/QUOTE]
Good, and your point was?

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
the intent to establish Islam as a state religion is written right into the Hamas charter. Do you assume the promise of a one-state solution is enough to make them drop this? Do you assume they’re only kidding and they wouldn’t really declare an Islamic state? Please enlighten me.
[/QUOTE]
Some parameters: Earlier you wrote this: “I have little doubt they will cheerfully and democratically declare it an officially Muslim state”. You first posited an Islamic state arrived at by democratic means. Now you are talking about an Islamic state by declaration.

Similarly, you earlier wrote “mass suicide among Israeli Jews.” To which I correctly responded “Paranoia.”

Firstly, I doubt that a democratic multi-ethnic state would elect an Islamic constitution. Whatever the disposition of Hamas, I see no reason to believe the Palestinans have opinions any less diverse than other people about the proper form of government. Couple to that a Jewish minority/near-majority and the likelihood of a democratic Islam state seems remote, in our scenario.

Leaving that behind for the moment, in any event, how would an Islamic state equate to, and I quote: “mass suicide among Israeli Jews”. I am aware it is popular amongst certain circles to declaim ‘genocide’ at the drop of a hat, but it is in fact a stretch to see where exactly your claim matches the position of a Jewish minority in a democratic state.
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
It is?I am? Not consciously, I assure you. Rather, my confidence in Israeli military success…
[/QUOTE]
Seems to me, the greatest successes of the Israeli military are in conscripting the US army to do its dirty work, hence Iraq. That is another discussion though.
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
…If you have any ideas of how to establish a one-state solution where all citizens can live in freedom and safety, please share. …
[/QUOTE]
See above and also the article I linked to previously. The evidence isn’t there to suggest that a single state would be anything other than free and safe.

222

[QUOTE=Jackmannii]
Speaking of “resonating with our discussion of late”, here’s a nifty couple of takes on celebrating Israel’s 60th anniversary…

Wonder how much of it … Sevastopol would have to read before finding something with which they disagreed. :dubious:
[/QUOTE]
'Prose’s bland, :mad: couldn’t read further.

Edit: Bryan Eckers. It’s a blog. One only. My few humble posts are only just enough to overcome decades of manufactured paranoia in North America, but not for everyone. Concentrate harder.

223

Wow, you manage to be smarmy, dishonest, obnoxious and stupid, all at once.
Truly, this is a talent.

224

[QUOTE=Sevastopol]
Good, and your point was?
[/quote]
That in a number of significant and objectively measurable ways, Israel’s system of government is better than the neighboring states.

If you’ve studied the history of the region even casually, you must have come across the phrase “One man, one vote, one time”. There is a very real and legitimate concern that the moment radical Muslims gain sufficient numbers and/or influence, they will vote to dissolve democratic structures and establish Islamic rule. What would it take to make a major constitutional change in the theoretical “Greater Palestine” and establish Islam as the state religion? 50%+1 vote? 67%? How much effort does it take to unravel a democracy?

I was being a bit hyperbolic, I admit, but are you of the opinion that a minority Jewish population in a Greater Palestine is safe, forever? Hamas’s charter is pretty clear they would not be.

The likelihood of a democratic Islamic state is remote in any scenario. Offhand I can think of only one, Turkey, and its military has intervened repeatedly to keep the state from sliding into Islamic rule. Do you expect the Palestinians to do better, “whatever the disposition of Hamas”? Based on what? Your doubts are not sufficiently compelling.

No, let’s not leave that behind, though I’ve noticed that leaving things behind when they prove troublesome is a habit of yours. The bluntly-stated goal of Hamas is the destruction of Israel and the extermination of its Jewish population. If Israel consents to become part of a Greater Palestine, is it not highly likely, or even inevitable, that Jews will at some point comprise a minority in a state where the leadership of the majority has said in no uncertain terms that their goal is to eliminate that minority? This is not an exaggeration of Hamas’s position. It’s in their charter. They’re PROUD of it.

Well, before I let that slide, I’d like an example. The U.S. has supplied some logistical and intelligence support, but “dirty work” ? Such as…? How the invasion of Iraq benefits Israel escapes me, except perhaps that some would-be suicide bombers are now headed for Baghdad instead of Jerusalem.

You mean George E. Bisharat’s op-ed L.A. Times piece? I don’t see a lot of specifics there, or in your writing. The “evidence” is that Hamas will cheerfully support violence while using violent rhetoric because this is what they’ve always done. What miraculous transformation into a responsible democratic government with respect for citizens of all faiths are you expecting to occur?

225

[QUOTE=Sevastopol]
Edit: Bryan Eckers. It’s a blog. One only. My few humble posts are only just enough to overcome decades of manufactured paranoia in North America, but not for everyone. Concentrate harder.
[/QUOTE]

Heh, well, before those decades of supposedly manufactured paranoia, there were quite a few centuries of undeniably justifiable paranoia. In states where Jews have been the minority (which is pretty much every state, with one exception), it is only in recent times, and only in some places, that their safety and rights are assured. Now you’re suggesting that Israel let itself get absorbed into a government run by people who hate it and it will all work out, somehow.

My concentration is just fine. I’ve no idea where yours is.

226

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
What would it take to make a major constitutional change in the theoretical “Greater Palestine” and establish Islam as the state religion? 50%+1 vote? 67%? How much effort does it take to unravel a democracy?
[/quote]

Well, the real point, as the troll well knows, is that Hamas doesn’t need any approval for a constitution. Hamas doesn’t need a constitution. Hamas was busy raiding hospitals and throwing their political enemies off of buildings just a short while ago. The fact is, one of the first things Hamas did after seizing control of Gaza was to say they were going to impose Islamic law. Not put it to a vote. Not draft a new constitution.
Of course, then Hamas claimed it wasn’t going to impose Islamic law. Before, well… “increasingly imposing harsh interpretations of Islamic law and using brute force to bolster their isolated administration”

That sevasty is honestly ignorant of that, rather than lying, strains credulity.
Trolls will troll, after all.

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]

Well, before I let that slide, I’d like an example. The U.S. has supplied some logistical and intelligence support, but “dirty work” ? Such as…? How the invasion of Iraq benefits Israel escapes me, except perhaps that some would-be suicide bombers are now headed for Baghdad instead of Jerusalem.
[/quote]

Sevasty generally babbles about how “Zionists” control the US government. The facts are, of course, diametrically opposed to sevasty’s trolling. Israel warned us against attacking Iraq. And that from the rather biased commondreams in an article that still tries to spin the IASPS’ actual objectives.

227

And speaking of facts, even the ‘moderate’ Fatah is going to execute a Palestinian policeman… for helping bring terrorists to justice in accord with Oslo and the Roadmap.

The idea that either major faction of the Palestinian government would guarantee, let alone support, a peaceful one state ‘solution’ is bonkers.

228

Well, I guess we won this round. Shalom out, Finn.

229

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
That in a number of significant and objectively measurable ways, Israel’s system of government is better than the neighboring states.
[/QUOTE]
Nearly as good as Kazhakstan and Azerbaijan in literacy. There’s a prize for all comers.
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
If you’ve studied the history of the region even casually, you must have come across the phrase “One man, one vote, one time”. There is a very real and legitimate concern that the moment radical Muslims gain sufficient numbers and/or influence, they will vote to dissolve democratic structures and establish Islamic rule.
[/QUOTE]
Paranoia. In no way reflecting the demographics of a unified state.
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
I was being a bit hyperbolic, I admit, but are you of the opinion that a minority Jewish population in a Greater Palestine is safe, forever? Hamas’s charter is pretty clear they would not be.
[/QUOTE]
Sure. Contary to the hate-speech, there is no such threat from Hamas.
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
. … Do you expect the Palestinians to do better, “whatever the disposition of Hamas”? Based on what? Your doubts are not sufficiently compelling.
[/QUOTE]
Palestinians are religiously diverse. There is no adequate evidence to suggest a majority would relinquish the vote to a religious rather than democratic state.
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
No, let’s not leave that behind, though I’ve noticed that leaving things behind when they prove troublesome is a habit of yours.
[/QUOTE]
It is another expression for “even accepting that to be true.”
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
… The bluntly-stated goal of Hamas is the destruction of Israel and the extermination of its Jewish population.
[/QUOTE]
This is the frequent claim and patently false. “Bluntly-stated”, you go so far! The Israeli propaganda is so heavily invested in this terrible lie, it is no wonder many wise people are prone to regards Israelis as already dead.
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
If Israel consents to become part of a Greater Palestine, is it not highly likely, or even inevitable, that Jews will at some point comprise a minority in a state where the leadership of the majority has said in no uncertain terms that their goal is to eliminate that minority? This is not an exaggeration of Hamas’s position. It’s in their charter. They’re PROUD of it.
[/QUOTE]
As above, you’ve been a victim of the propaganda and paranoia too long. There is a whole thread waiting to be composed “What purposes are behind the claim Hamas proposes to exterminate the Jews?”. Someday.

Lastly, the LaTimes series

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[QUOTE=Sevastopol]
The Israeli propaganda is so heavily invested in this terrible lie, it is no wonder many wise people are prone to regards Israelis as already dead.
[/QUOTE]

[Checks pulse]

Pshew! Scared me there for a minute!

231

[QUOTE=Sevastopol]
Nearly as good as Kazhakstan and Azerbaijan in literacy. There’s a prize for all comers.
[/quote]

That’s stretching the “neighboring” aspect a bit, though you raise a good point regarding the emphasis on literacy in the Soviet Union, which I’ll admit was something the USSR did well.

Uh-huh. You said that before. What are the demographics of a theoretical Greater Palestine, by which I mean assuming full unification of all the territories now comprising Israel, Golan, West Bank, Gaza, coupled with a Palestinian right of return (demanded by Hamas) for all refugees and their descendants now living in Egypt, Jordan and Syria? How long would it take for the Jews to be outnumbered, do you think? How long after that before democracy, which is not and has never been a high priority of Hamas, is altered or abolished? Democracy is actually a pretty fragile structure.

I can only conclude you haven’t actually read Hamas’ charter or various interviews with its leadership.

No, they’ll relinquish the vote to whatever thugs happen to have the upper hand at the moment.

I only have to go as far as Hamas’ own charter and related statements. Need I provide you relevant quotes? Have you actually read any of Hamas’ statements?

Start it, by all means. It’s the “someday” attitude that keeps Palestinians in their precarious condition. Someday they’ll have revenge. Someday Israel will fall. Someday somebody will do something. I’m guessing that among the early replies to such a thread will be quotes from Hamas leaders and documents. Since there’s a factual answer to your question, you could even start it in GQ.

It’s interesting to read the Pearl/Bisharat debate and I thank you for bringing it to our attention. But Bisharat, and you, have overlooked a critical element - there’s no point embracing equality with another another person, unless that person is willing to do the same. When the Palestinians elect an authority that dispenses with all rhetoric of Israel’s destruction, THAT’S the beginning of a “someday.”

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[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
a critical element - there’s no point embracing equality with another person, unless that person is willing to do the same. When the Palestinians elect an authority that dispenses with all rhetoric of Israel’s destruction, THAT’S the beginning of a “someday.”
[/QUOTE]
Somehow you seem to assume here that Israeli side is the one ready to embrace equality. Yet, there is no single activity that could be used as factual proof for this statement. On contrary, there are many things that suggest that Israel DOES NOT embrace equality - just to name the few: 2nd class treatment of non-Israelis in Israel, the rate of settlement increase in both size and population, tactics of war contrary to Geneva conventions.

I’m amazed, but truly amazed at how people can make statement such as the above without blinking and moreover, feel that they “won” the debate.

233

[QUOTE=Sevastopol]
There is a whole thread waiting to be composed “What purposes are behind the claim Hamas proposes to exterminate the Jews?”. Someday.
[/quote]
I started it on your behalf.

Well, what form of equality-based government has the Palestinians attempted to establish within their own territories? As I understand it, Hamas and Fatah represent factions dedicated primarily to their own interests, less so the rights of the individual Palestinians. I’m prepared to be corrected, of course.

Doesn’t every country treat non-citizens differently? Even us even-tempered Canadians? Are you referring to non-Jewish Israeli citizens?

The settlements, I admit, should be stopped. So should suicide-bomber attacks on pizzerias. As for Geneva violations, don’t those break down fairly quickly when fighting an enemy that doesn’t wear uniforms or otherwise adopts the posture of formal combat?

Oh, I had no illusions that I (along with FinnAgain) had beaten anyone except Sevastapol himself, and it’s not exactly a newsworthy victory.

234

[QUOTE=MistyCanadian]
Yet, there is no single activity that could be used as factual proof for this statement.
[/quote]

Except, of course, 1948, 1967, Oslo, Wye and Taba.
So no, not one single activity.

[QUOTE=MistyCanadian]
2nd class treatment of non-Israelis in Israel
[/quote]

Factually untrue on numerous particulars. Non-Israelis are not 2nd class, they have the same rights that, in general, any visiting foreign national has in someone else’s country. Israeli citizens are all ‘1st class’ citizens, and the Israeli Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled against unequal treatment. While there is certainly racism that goes on, the real question is how the judiciary deals with such events.

[QUOTE=MistyCanadian]

tactics of war contrary to Geneva conventions.
[/quote]

What tactics, exactly, and which Geneva Convention(s), and most importantly, what specific laws set down in which convention(s) are you claiming are/have been violated?

235

[QUOTE=FinnAgain]
Except, of course, 1948, 1967, Oslo, Wye and Taba.
So no, not one single activity.

Factually untrue on numerous particulars. Non-Israelis are not 2nd class, they have the same rights that, in general, any visiting foreign national has in someone else’s country. Israeli citizens are all ‘1st class’ citizens, and the Israeli Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled against unequal treatment. While there is certainly racism that goes on, the real question is how the judiciary deals with such events.

What tactics, exactly, and which Geneva Convention(s), and most importantly, what specific laws set down in which convention(s) are you claiming are/have been violated?
[/QUOTE]

Point #1: There is a difference in every-day life activities and concerted effort in suppressing hostility while negotiating peace. To me, two different things entirely. Former is what one really thinks, the latter is what one preaches. Again, point remains that in every-day life there is no single activity that suggests Israelis are embracing Palestinians as equal.

Point #2: There was an error in my assertion. Instead of non-Israeli, I meant Palestinians in Israel. May require another response. Just bear in mind that - in general, if some identifiable group and minority in a given country is referred to as potential enemy or a fifth column… well, that pretty much defines 2nd class status for that group.

Point #3: Few example… human shield, destruction of homes by family association, killing of innocent by-standers.

236

[QUOTE=MistyCanadian]
Point #1: There is a difference in every-day life activities and concerted effort in suppressing hostility while negotiating peace. To me, two different things entirely. Former is what one really thinks, the latter is what one preaches. Again, point remains that in every-day life there is no single activity that suggests Israelis are embracing Palestinians as equal.
[/quote]

What exactly do you mean by “equal”? I though the relevant aspect in this case was “We have our state and will protect our citizens and we will actively discourage any attempt by some of our citizens to attack your citizens because that could easily put our other citizens at risk” and the hopes that the Palestinians might adopt an equivalent stance.

Are they referred to as such? By whom? Anyone in the Israeli government or judiciary?

What specific parts of the Geneva Convention are being contravened (“human shield” ? By Israelis?). Sure, innocents are being killed. There’s plenty of that going around. Destruction of homes is fair game if the buildings are being used for planning or staging of attacks. Feel free to provide examples of this being done just because Israel felt like it.

There’s plenty of emotion in the issue - I’d like some facts. Feel free to drop by the GD thread mentioned above.

237

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
…
[/QUOTE]

My apologies, I just do not have the time to do my research, as GD requires. But it’s not just the time. It is the clout of predictability that gathers every time these matters are discussed. Because usually, point-by-point discussions on various items that spurt out every time someone is trying to ask tough questions further turn into a tedious accounting of one’s anti-____ (fill the blanks at your convenience). What I mean is that based on the way you constructed your question on the issue of say 2nd class citizen status of Palestinians in Israel, there is no way that you would accept as fact the reality on the ground, every day life and the 2nd class feeling the people in question have, the statements made by Israeli historians, or even former Israeli PM, statements that permeate on the blogs and in the newspapapers (no, I’m not going to provide cites and example as these things are not hidden in some obscure places –if one wants to, one can get find out about this with the same level of inconvenience as when one wants to find out result of the hockey game). Oh no, no way that does not prove anything because in these times anybody can say anything. All the information will be ignored and the only factual proof acceptable is if there is a law of the land that says they are to be treated as 2nd class citizens. The logic then goes on to conclude, since there is no such law that I can cite, I must be wrong. As soon as I am found to be wrong, then my motives are then questioned and soon I can find myself explaining the “real” motives behind my innocent quest for dialog. That’s usually what happens on this board so I’ll pass on GD and admit upfront I don’t have a case.

Yet, the reason I responded to this OP is that somehow that big-picture that I mentioned above is never discussed or presented. This absurdity of point-by-point debate where Israeli side and their supporters claim victory of near sainthood for one side and near evilness of the other – yet, situation for Palestinians is getting worse and worse, year by year. Settlements size increasing, number of civilians’ deaths increases, number of prisoners in Israeli jails increases, radicalization of the Palestinian society increases – yet, one side washes their hands clean and the other… well, committed a sin of existing as a nuisance, they just don’t get it.

Big-picture point is that how can one side expect the other to embrace anything when one side holds the other in a mortal clinch. All the other side can embrace is the idea that on day the tide will turn. And I cannot fathom how can anyone expect anything less.

The rant is over. Thank you.

238

[QUOTE=MistyCanadian]
What I mean is that based on the way you constructed your question on the issue of say 2nd class citizen status of Palestinians in Israel, there is no way that you would accept as fact the reality on the ground, every day life and the 2nd class feeling the people in question have, the statements made by Israeli historians, or even former Israeli PM, statements that permeate on the blogs and in the newspapapers (no, I’m not going to provide cites and example as these things are not hidden in some obscure places –if one wants to, one can get find out about this with the same level of inconvenience as when one wants to find out result of the hockey game).
[/quote]

Can you please define “Palestinian”, because I always took it to mean a resident of the various disputed territories around Israel, not a citizen of Israel itself. Thus, “2nd class citizen status of Palestinians in Israel” is meaningless because Palestinians aren’t citizens of Israel at all. I may be wrong, of course.

Who’s doing that? I wasn’t - Israelis aren’t saints and while I view the Palestinian leadership as a bunch of short-sighted thugs, I’m not demonizing the average Palestinian who just wants to get on with his life.

As for claiming victory, I only did so over Sevastapol himself, because his debate was weak and he couldn’t defend his points or challenge mine. Had the debate been about, say, statehood for Puerto Rico and followed a similar path, I’d’ve done the same.

Well, then the question becomes who can stop it and how?

Yes, or you can take steps to change the situation. Violence and rhetoric obviously won’t do it, so try negotiation and realistic goals. Seriously, if you had a clear advantage over someone, would you negotiate with them while they continue to rant about how they’d kill you if they had the chance? What’s your suggested alternative?

239

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
… The bluntly-stated goal of Hamas is the destruction of Israel and the extermination of its Jewish population…

I can only conclude you haven’t actually read Hamas’ charter or various interviews with its leadership.

I only have to go as far as Hamas’ own charter and related statements. Need I provide you relevant quotes?
[/QUOTE]
Sure. That’d be good. I note that the GD thread you have started has no reference to ‘exterminate’ in the OP. So here’s a definition for you to work with. dictionary definition

Now. Go show me “extermination of its Jewish population.”

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
How long would it take for the Jews to be outnumbered, do you think? How long after that before democracy, which is not and has never been a high priority of Hamas, is altered or abolished? …
[/QUOTE]
Again with the paranoia. It is your claim. You make it out.

240

[QUOTE=Sevastopol]
Sure. That’d be good. I note that the GD thread you have started has no reference to ‘exterminate’ in the OP. So here’s a definition for you to work with. dictionary definition Now. Go show me “extermination of its Jewish population.”
[/quote]

FinnAgain was kind enough to supply this from the Hamas charter:

It doesn’t contain the exact word “exterminate” (that is to say, this particular translation does not), but I take the intent to be a violent one, suggesting hunting Jews down, rooting them out from hiding paces, killing them… I don’t see how it takes a paranoid mindset to make the connection between this and a desire to exterminate. Is there another meaning I should take? Are you challenging the accuracy of the translation or the quote? If not, do you accept that the quote and translation are accurate representations of Hamas’s charter?

In any case, I invited in the GD thread for the mistakes in my assumptions to be challenged. If you’ve a cite from a senior Hamas leader that expresses a desire to live in peace with Jews in a Greater Palestine, by all means provide it.

That’s the third time you said “paranoia” without providing facts. Is the violent rhetoric in the Hamas charter (and their public statements generally) to be taken seriously or not? Will you even acknowledge that the violent rhetoric exists? If you have examples of non-violent peaceful-solution-seeking statements from Hamas, please provide them in the GD thread. Someday is now.