But, but, but SAM! The Europeans just won’t approve! No brownie points for Israel, and I’m guessing not a lot of Hanukkah cards either! Really, they should factor in what Europe thinks when they tear off like this and attack a helpless, peaceloving country like Lebanon…
-XT
[QUOTE=Sam Stone]
Israel is not only trying to send a message that this will not be toleranted, but it is taking concrete steps to ensure that it won’t happen again. Either Lebanon will remove Hezbollah from Israel’s borders, or Israel will re-occupy that portion of Lebanon to protects its citizens. Nothing else will do.
[/QUOTE]
I agree with all the other stuff you said, but I doubt Israel will try to re-occupy Lebanon. That was a disaster for them last time. They’re trying to create a buffer zone so that some international group can keep Hizbollah at bay. Hopefully the UN will be able to at least schedule a meeting in the next few weeks before Israel completes its objective.
[QUOTE=John Mace]
I agree with all the other stuff you said, but I doubt Israel will try to re-occupy Lebanon. That was a disaster for them last time. They’re trying to create a buffer zone so that some international group can keep Hizbollah at bay. Hopefully the UN will be able to at least schedule a meeting in the next few weeks before Israel completes its objective.
[/QUOTE]
John Mace, I wonder if they really would want a UN peacekeeping force as a buffer. I’m not sure, but I always thought most Israelis disdain the UNIFIL arrangement, plus I doubt many Israelis want to place their faith and lives in the hands of any UN-sponsored force (for good reason, IMO).
Any Israelis here who could shed light on how they feel about a UN buffer force?
[QUOTE=John Mace]
I agree with all the other stuff you said, but I doubt Israel will try to re-occupy Lebanon. That was a disaster for them last time. They’re trying to create a buffer zone so that some international group can keep Hizbollah at bay. Hopefully the UN will be able to at least schedule a meeting in the next few weeks before Israel completes its objective.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe. I certainly agree that Israel doesn’t want to occupy Southern Lebanon, but they will if they have to. There is no ending to this conflict that does not involve either the total destruction of Hezbollah (unlilkely), or the complete removal of Hezbollah from Israel’s border. If the Lebanon government can do it, fine. If it takes international troops, maybe, although Israel is understandable skeptical of the world’s commitment to its security. But Hezbollah’s days of having watchtowers looking over Israel are finished. Maybe we’ll see another DMZ set up.
[QUOTE=FinnAgain]
And, evidently, the fact of Iran’s involvement is making many other Arab states in the region very nervous.
[/QUOTE]
I hope you’re not suggesting making Arab states very nervous is a good thing, for Israel or anybody else!
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
I hope you’re not suggesting making Arab states very nervous is a good thing, for Israel or anybody else!
[/QUOTE]
Making Arab states nervous about usingstate sponsored terrorism is a very, very good thing. There are worse things to be nervous about than a realization that Iran/Syria/Lebanon’s game is no longer going to work as it has in the past.
A denial of terrorism as a political tool is the first step to achieving actual peace in the region.
[QUOTE=FinnAgain]
A denial of terrorism as a political tool is the first step to achieving actual peace in the region.
[/QUOTE]
Even if it requires terrorizing a nation by destroying massive amounts of property and taking many innocent civillian lives.
[QUOTE=Unregistered Bull]
Even if it requires terrorizing a nation by destroying massive amounts of property and taking many innocent civillian lives.
[/QUOTE]
‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,’ it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.’
Terrorizing a nation, responding in defense to a series of attacks directed at civilians.
Terrorism against a nation of innocents, a war based on a clear casus belli where a government is 100% complicit in a proxy force’s actions.
Destroying massive ammounts of property, atacking valid dual-use targets in response to an overt act of war and naked aggression.
Six of one, half dozen of another, eh?
[QUOTE=FinnAgain]
‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,’ it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.’
Terrorizing a nation, responding in defense to a series of attacks directed at civilians.
Terrorism against a nation of innocents, a war based on a clear casus belli where a government is 100% complicit in a proxy force’s actions.
Destroying massive ammounts of property, atacking valid dual-use targets in response to an overt act of war and naked aggression.
Six of one, half dozen of another, eh?
[/QUOTE]
Not really.
Israel is terrorizing a nation, Lebanon.
Israel is not a nation of innocents. But they do suffer from terrorism.
Hezbollah isn’t a proxy for the whole of Lebanon or it’s government.
And Israel isn’t atacking valid dual-use targetsr exclusively.
[QUOTE=Unregistered Bull]
Israel is terrorizing a nation, Lebanon.
[/quote]
Just keep pretending that state sponsored terrorist attacks that provoke a war can be handwaved away, and self defense is ‘terrorizing a nation’.
Self defense against a nation that commited an overt act of war is terrorism.
Self defense against a nation that commited an overt act of war is terrorism.
Self defense against a nation that commited an overt act of war is terrorism.
If you repeat it enough times, maybe it’ll become true.
[QUOTE=Unregistered Bull]
Israel is not a nation of innocents. But they do suffer from terrorism.
[/quote]
So Lebanon is a nation of innocents, but Israel is not?
[QUOTE=Unregistered Bull]
Hezbollah isn’t a proxy for the whole of Lebanon or it’s government.
[/quote]
Hrmmm… your claims, vs the Lebanese Defense Minister and their President. Who to trust, who to trust?!?
Besides, it doesn’t have to be a proxy for the ‘whole’ or Lebanon, whatever that means anyways. The Lebanese government funds Hezbollah, provides them with weapons and safe haven. That makes them responsible.
[QUOTE=Unregistered Bull]
And Israel isn’t atacking valid dual-use targetsr exclusively.
[/QUOTE]
Cite?
So, how long can Hezbollah keep up their rocket attacks? How many can they have?
Well, as long as they are getting resupplied I suppose they can keep it up. The real question is…how many does whoever is supplying them have? The answer is probably…lots.
-XT
Most sources put the arsenal at 10,000 to 13,000, assuming they can’t be resupplied by Syria or Iran.
[QUOTE=FinnAgain]
Just keep pretending that state sponsored terrorist attacks that provoke a war can be handwaved away, and self defense is ‘terrorizing a nation’.
Self defense against a nation that commited an overt act of war is terrorism.
Self defense against a nation that commited an overt act of war is terrorism.
Self defense against a nation that commited an overt act of war is terrorism.
If you repeat it enough times, maybe it’ll become true.
[/quote]
And you can handwave away the fact that Israel is killing and terrorizing innocents as much as you like. I don’t see them going after terrorists or the government, I see them attacking civilian targets. Almost like . . . they were trying to terrorize the population. Hmmmmmm.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
And you can handwave away the fact that Israel is killing and terrorizing innocents as much as you like.
[/quote]
Any other words you’d like to redefine while you’re at it? Yes, innocents are killed during a war. Who started the war? Why, Lebanon. This nonsense about ‘terrorizing’ is oh so fun. Everybody knows that self defense is really terrorism. If I try to murder you, and then you punch me in the nose, you’re terrorizing me! Terror! Ayieeeeeeee!
Of course.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
I don’t see them going after terrorists or the government, I see them attacking civilian targets.
[/quote]
Well, if you don’t see it, surely that lack of vision isn’t the result of willful ignorance. Nopers.
How about a cite for them -not- attacking military/governmental/dual-use targets, and instead attacking civilian targets? Those, by the way, would be schools, hospitals, churches, etc… Not roads, power stations, bridges, and other valid dual-use targets of war.
I’ll be waiting for that cite.
I’m sure that you’ll provide one.
Just like you provided a cite on how destroying roads will surely lead to slow sadistic deaths for… oh… no… you ignored that request for a cite, proof, or any verifiable claims, and kept on with talking points. Odd, that.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Almost like . . . they were trying to terrorize the population. Hmmmmmm.
[/QUOTE]
Damn those uppity Israelis for thinking that when Lebanon commited an act of naked aggression and an act of war against them, that they could, ya know, respond. How crazy. Only terrorists engage in self defense.
Tune in next week where Mr. Trihs explains how the molotov chucking fuckers in the Camps were terrorizing their noble wardens, the valient Germans.
Valiant, anyways.
And while we’re at it, I notice that you gleefully ignore facts which prove you wrong.
Any reason, in particular, that you cling to a position once it has been shown to be absolutely bankrupt? Just curious, is all.
[QUOTE=FinnAgain]
Any other words you’d like to redefine while you’re at it? Yes, innocents are killed during a war. Who started the war? Why, Lebanon. This nonsense about ‘terrorizing’ is oh so fun. Everybody knows that self defense is really terrorism. If I try to murder you, and then you punch me in the nose, you’re terrorizing me! Terror! Ayieeeeeeee!
Of course.
[/quote]
I don’t care who started the war; I don’t care if the Lebanese leadership feasts on Israeli babies every evening. The Israelis are going after civilian targets; that’s what I care about. They have killed far more people than Lebnanon or Hezballah; that’s what I care about.
[QUOTE=FinnAgain]
How about a cite for them -not- attacking military/governmental/dual-use targets, and instead attacking civilian targets? Those, by the way, would be schools, hospitals, churches, etc… Not roads, power stations, bridges, and other valid dual-use targets of war.
[/quote]
Duel use = just about everything that makes civilization run. It’s a small step from that to indiscriminate bombing of the population, since everyone contibutes to the nation’s military; the people are “duel use” - a rather disgusting weasel phrase, I might add. That’s the same idea they had in WWII, leading to atrocities like Dresden. Do you think anyone who’s not already an Israeli apologist will be impressed ?
[QUOTE=FinnAgain]
I’ll be waiting for that cite.
I’m sure that you’ll provide one.
[/quote]
Here’s one : AFP
[QUOTE=AFP]
An AFP journalist saw that one of the lorries was transporting medicine from the United Arab Emirates (UAE). Another had been carrying vegetable oil, which spilled over the road, a third had a cargo of provisions and the fourth was empty.
Meanwhile Turkish diplonats in Beirut said that a Turkish truck carrying cooking oil was also destroyed by Israeli fire in the Bekaa valley on Tuesday.
The UAE also denounced the bombarding of one of their humanitarian convoys.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=FinnAgain]
Just like you provided a cite on how destroying roads will surely lead to slow sadistic deaths for… oh… no… you ignored that request for a cite, proof, or any verifiable claims, and kept on with talking points. Odd, that.
[/quote]
I already did; we smashed the Iraqi infrastructure; look at the result.
[QUOTE=FinnAgain]
Damn those uppity Israelis for thinking that when Lebanon commited an act of naked aggression and an act of war against them, that they could, ya know, respond. How crazy. Only terrorists engage in self defense.
[/quote]
Hmmm . . . from the same link.
[QUOTE=AFP]
But Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert defended the relentless bombardment, saying it was aimed at obtaining the release of two Israeli soldiers and the disarmament of Hezbollah in line with an existing UN resolution.
He told visiting UN envoys trying to broker a ceasefire that “Israel will continue the battle against Hezbollah and will continue to strike targets belonging to the group until it obtains the release of its captured soldiers and restores the security of Israeli citizens.”
[/QUOTE]
Translation : to save two soldiers, Israel will cheerfully kill hundreds or thousands of Lebanese, since as non-Israelis, they aren’t really human and their lives don’t count. Funny how the side that’s “defending itself” has such a higher body count, few if any of whom are the actual supposed targets. Like so :
[QUOTE=AFP]
Close to 300 people have been killed in Lebanon since Israel unleashed a massive military offensive it says is aimed at destroying the Hezbollah guerrilla group after the capture of two soldiers eight days ago.
[/QUOTE]
2 Israeli lives are, in your view, no doubt far more valuable than 300 of the subhuman Lebanese.
[QUOTE=FinnAgain]
Tune in next week where Mr. Trihs explains how the molotov chucking fuckers in the Camps were terrorizing their noble wardens, the valient Germans.
[/QUOTE]
Godwin’s law wins again !
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Translation : to save two soldiers, Israel will cheerfully kill hundreds or thousands of Lebanese…/
[QUOTE]
I like how you ignored the part about them trying to attack Hezbollah, as if somehow that’s not really the objective.
We get it, they’re Jews, they don’t have the right to self defense. Hey, let’s get it all out in the open. You’re not a member of CUPE, are you?
[QUOTE=RickJay]
I like how you ignored the part about them trying to attack Hezbollah, as if somehow that’s not really the objective.
[/quote]
I see no evidence that it is; it appears to be an attempt to terrorize the Lebanese populace.
[QUOTE=RickJay]
We get it, they’re Jews, they don’t have the right to self defense. Hey, let’s get it all out in the open. You’re not a member of CUPE, are you?
[/QUOTE]
I never said that; I don’t think they are defending themselves. Nor have any special feelings about Jews, nor do I have any idea what CUPE is. I hate to break it to you, but one can dislike the behavior of Israel and care nothing for the Jewishness of it’s population. These constant attempts to equate criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism are insulting, dishonest and stupid.
Shall we sum up your quotes so far in various threads?
You don’t care who started the war. You don’t care that the Lebanese proxy force is not only targeting civilians, but attempting to maximize civilian casualties. And you claim that Israel is acting out of “sadism” to kill Lebanese with a long slow death… even though you have no proof, at all, that there is any health crisis in any way, shape, or form.
Onwards!
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Godwin’s law wins again !
[/QUOTE]
With the lack of knowledge you’ve continually displayed, desire to make things up without any factual confirmation, and totally distorted worldview, it doesn’t surprise me that you’re ignorant or wilfully ignorant of the fact that Israel’s enemies have, many times, professed genocidal ambitions.
Don’t let reality get in the way of a good rant.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
I don’t care who started the war;
[/quote]
Ya don’t say?
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
The Israelis are going after civilian targets; that’s what I care about.
[/quote]
Yet again you say it.
Yet again you will refuse to provide any cite.
Go figure.
Please, make more things up. Is Israel also killing Lebanese infants and using their blood to make Matzah?
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
They have killed far more people than Lebnanon or Hezballah; that’s what I care about.
[/quote]
It’s the Calculus of Counting on Fingers.
If Lebanon attacks Israel, and then Israel defends itself but it’s better at defending themselves than Lebanon is at murdering Israelis, why, Israel must be a bunch of terrorists.
It makes perfect sense.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Duel use = just about everything that makes civilization run.
[/quote]
Shall I take that as an admission that you were making things up again as dual-use targets are recognized and legal targets of war, and distinct from civilian targets?
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
It’s a small step from that to indiscriminate bombing of the population, since everyone contibutes to the nation’s military; the people are “duel use” - a rather disgusting weasel phrase, I might add.
[/quote]
:eek:
What, exactly, will it take to pull you through that looking glass you’re hiding in? Are you honestly going to contend that the 4th GC authorizes targeting civilians as dual-use targets? That attacking legal and recognized targets of war is just a ‘small step’ from targeting civilians?
Do you, like, read this stuff out loud before you post to see if it makes any sense, at all?
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
That’s the same idea they had in WWII, leading to atrocities like Dresden. Do you think anyone who’s not already an Israeli apologist will be impressed ?
[/quote]
I know you like making things up, but do you really think that anybody who’s not irrationally anti-Israel will be impressed by the claim that the 4th GC is the ‘same idea’ as that which lead to Dresden?
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Here’s one : AFP
[/quote]
No… a cite for them bombing civilian targets, not for thinking that a truck convoy held weapons. Or that, totally unatributed to any direct intention, a truck somewhere was collateral damage.
And while we’re at it, it doesn’t seem at all strange to you that a humanitarian convoy was 1/4 empty, and 1/4 filled with vegetable oil? Or that a convoy of trucks hit by a freaking high explosive would have its contents easily recognizable? When exactly did the reporter arrive on scene, how many hours after the actual attack in time to see the perfectly preserved cargo of trucks hit by ordinance?
And while we’re at it, do “medicine, vegetable oil and provosions” normally cook off in secondary explosions? Must be some high test Mazola they’re using, eh?
Come on, you’ve made sweeping claims. At lesat make an attempt to back them up. Where are all that proof of civilian targeted attacks? How many apartment buildings have been hit? How many schools? How many churches/mosques? Do tell.
And no, stray shells do not count. So sorry.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
I already did; we smashed the Iraqi infrastructure; look at the result.
[/quote]
Does “I already did” mean “No, I didn’t and I’m obfuscating” in your world? You have not provided any cite, even once, that the damage to Lebanese roads will result in ‘long slow sadistic deaths’. Not once have you proven this. But you’ve attempted to assert that Iraq is exactly the same as Lebanon. Even though you are still totally unable to cite massive deaths from starvation in Iraq.
So even your analogy is imaginary. Par for the course, eh?
Or, while we’re at it, care to realize that one situation isn’t another, and you actually have to prove something for the case you’re discussing? Or will you just -continue- to evade any and all requests for you to provide proof for your imagianed scenario?
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Hmmm . . . from the same link.
Translation : to save two soldiers, Israel will cheerfully kill hundreds or thousands of Lebanese, since as non-Israelis, they aren’t really human and their lives don’t count.
[/quote]
Does your stunning lack of honesty disturb you, at all? Or is there a valid reason for you deliberately ignoring the fact that even the quote you posted said that the soldiers were just part of the reason and dealing with Hezbollah as a whole was a massive part of it?
I mean, I know, I know, you like making things up, but come on. If you quote something, it’s generally poor form to turn right around and then make things up about the quote which is a fraction of an inch above your, erm… ‘mistake’.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Funny how the side that’s “defending itself” has such a higher body count,
[/quote]
Yes… ‘funny’ that Israel is better able to defend itself than Lebanon is at murdering Israelis. That’s like, sooooo unfair duuuuude.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
2 Israeli lives are, in your view, no doubt far more valuable than 300 of the subhuman Lebanese.
[/quote]
Subhuman? Tired of little lies, and now going for massive ones? I find it funny that, yet again, you cite something saying that the goal is to destroy all of Hamas, and then you turn around and not only pretend it’s only about two soldiers, but that anybody who understands that in a war innocent die must think that the Lebanese are “subhuman”.
Compounding deliberate intellectual dishonesty with bullshit charges of racism seems to be par for the course. Good show!