The region was annexed almost three decades ago, it is governed by Israeli law. 27 years of holding sovereignty over an area is hardly ‘fluid’.
UNSC 497, which challenged the annexation, was non-binding.
So it is de facto, as well as pragmatically de jure, part of Israel.
It’s as much as part of Israel as Texas is a part of America.
By the way Argent, this is not a new phenomena:
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](BBC NEWS | Middle East | Hezbollah seizes Israel soldiers)
Hold it… Regev and Goldwasser weren’t even taken from Shabaa Farms! From Ha’Aretz a few days ago:
(Bolding mine)
Zarit is a small village in the Upper Galilee, nowhere near Shabaa Farms or the Golan Heights. You can see where it is (Note: PDF) on this map. Their unit was on a routine morning patrol, along the Israel-Lebanon border, inside Israeli territory as these patrols always move. Hizballah were the once who crossed the internationally agreed and accepted border between Israel and Lebanon in order to carry out the abduction – as acknowledged by (among others) the International Herald Tribune:
(Bolding, again, mine)
Interesting… I must’ve conflated early claims that they were in Lebanese territory with later reports about the actual location. Or maybe an earlier kidnapping… bah. Ignorance fought.
Thanks Noone.
However, no one who wished to continue posting in this Forum would make such a deliberately off-topic comment in GD simply for the purpose of being offensive.
Again with the disproportionate trade off. 3 dead soldiers’ bodies for hundreds of prisoners? Why?
Israel takes such a hard-line stance in so many other ways, why so soft on these exchanges? Is it really that meaningful to the Israeli government that the dead soldiers be given a proper burial on Israeli soil and for their families to have closure?
But I don’t know what else Israel could do in this situation except threaten to kill the prisoners or launch an attack aaginst Hizbollah, which of course would cast them in a worse light than they are already perceived amongst their neighbors, and they’d not only be stooping to their level, but enforcing the stereotype of Jews held by their suspicious Arab neighbors.
This is just so surreal to me, being an American. It’s difficult to wrap my brain around such a swap, when by all accounts it would seem Israel held the upper hand in the bargaining process by having not only more people to offer in a swap, but ones that are actually alive.
I always thought that this kind of thing was rooted in Israel’s roots in the holocaust. The idea is that no Israeli or Jew would ever again be abandoned by the world the same way they were during the holocaust, now that the state of Israel “has their corner” and isn’t prepared to abandon a single one.
I can understand that, but if they are already dead (and granted, they may not know that at the time of the agreement…but shouldn’t that be part of it? You know, if they’re alive, we’ll give you this many prisoners, if they’re dead, then only this many) and Israel knows that they likely are, then why agree to such terms when they are releasing people that may come back to attack them again in the future?
If Israel wants to put up a hard-ass, post-Holocaust, never-again, “our corner” reputation, I can’t possibly imagine this is the way to do it. It makes them look, in very un-diplomatic terms, like a bitch.
I’d wonder if our Israeli Dopers can comment on a possible dynamic: in Israel, the ultra-religious right swings its votes as a very powerful block, due to the coalition governments which form.
Along those lines, they often are able to impose their beliefs beyond what their mere demographic percentage in the society would be. One of those beliefs of the, shall we say, observant Jewish community is that during (after?) the messianic age, there will be physical resurrection for which a person’s entire body will have to be present. Along those lines, after suicide bombings and the like, specially trained teams actually collect all the scraps of flesh that may’ve been scattered around the area.
That religious belief coupled with voting power might also explain why recovering dead flesh, even in exchange for hundreds of prisoners, might make sense, from a certain point of view.
Right, wrong, meaningless?
My two cents in that it might have something to do with the death of the high ranking Hezballah member Imad Mughniyah, which Hezballah believes Israel had a hand in killing. Given Hezballah’s willingness to retaliate against Israel, both on and off Israeli soil, perhaps Israel is attempting to deescalate the situation?
Given that Hezbollah has stated that they want to destroy Israel, I can’t see how what Israel is doing is going to convince them not to attack. If anything, it’s the foreign-policy equivalent of bending over and saying “stick it in.”
Giving these people what they perceive as victories escalates the situation. They consider willingness to negotiate a sign of weakness.
The Israeli military really needs to consider putting a question in its enlistment paperwork that asks something like: “In the event that you are killed in the line of duty, do you wish the government to release convicted criminals in exchange for recovering your remains?”
Facts? Were you present when the abduction took place?
I never take the word of the military as facts in such situations (like for instance when, recently, British sailors were detained in Iran). And newspapers generally report whatever the authorities told them. It’s not like they had reporters present, either.
If whoever captured them also say they were abducted in Israel, I will believe that. If they disagree, I’ll consider the issue unresolved.
If the soldiers were actually on the Lebanese side of the border for some reason or another, do you believe that Tsahal would admit to that? No. They would state that they were “on a routine patrol” in any case. There’s no way for us to know.
A small civilized country that survives against the hate of a billion people.
Weak and stupid? Let the record show…
Israel’s survival does not depend on what Hezbollah thinks. It depends on what its family’s think. As long as the government continues to regard the sons and daughters of their families alive or dead with such high value, individual bereaved families can find solace that their burden is recognized and that their community stands by them.
Strength comes from within.
Furthermore, the value of continuing to hold a murderer in jail is highly over rated in my opinion . Revenge is such a useless objective and rehabilitation impossible. The safety of Israeli society is just as assured by exiling the murderer to join the rest of the frustrated would be murdering group he’s a part of.
Yeah, I agree with that - I think they should just be executed. But I think I’ve said enough about that in other threads.
You have GOT to be kidding me. The safety of Israeli society is assured by letting the murderer go back to his murdering (not “would be murdering” - ARE murdering) group, so he can be hailed as a hero, have parades in his honor, thereby increasing the morale of the terrorist group immensely, not to mention, being able to advise them on how best to sneak into Israel and kill innocent people? Yeah, that makes Israel real safe, buster. I’ve got a bridge I’d like to sell you.
Well Clair, why didn’t you say so earlier? If Hezbollah says so, then obviously the only fair thing to do is consider the situation unresolved.
We don’t even need to know that a Humvee was destroyed by explosives, killing three soldiers. We don’t need to know that there was direct, photographic evidence. We don’t need to know that the original statement by Hezbollah, already contained in a link I provided, said that the soldiers were captured at the border, and not in Lebanon.
After all if it’s Hezbollah who offers up denial, we must consider the possibility that, I guess, Israel quickly planted a Humvee at a fake site and blew it up. Or something. When faced with a choice between evidence and Hezbollah’s word, we must throw up our hands and declare that epistemology has taken a holiday.
And the only way this mess can be resolved is if Hezbollah itself says “Nope, we lied. Gotcha!”
Indeed. And writing “Hezbollah” in italics doesn’t change a thing. As I said above, I’ve zero confidence in an army or government telling the truth about a sensitive military or diplomatic issue.
Sorry, I can’t see your link, my browser crashes each time I try to open it.
That would be the most convincing argument.
Once again, writing “Hezbollah” in italics doesn’t change a thing. That said, maybe there are some evidences, and this could sway me one way or another. A picture of a destroyed military vehicle isn’t that bad, providing I’ve some confidence in the source (for instance, if * Tsahal * provided the picture and stated “it has been taken at such or such place”, I wouldn’t consider that as a sufficient evidence).
You forgot the italics. Basically, yes. Or independent, reliable sources that didn’t get their infos from official venues, as it so often happens. But journalists are rarely present when spy planes enter Chinese airspace, when navies roam around disputed waters in the Persian Gulf, when submarines sink in the Baltic sea and when soldiers are attacked in the vicinity of the Lebanese border.
Why would you want him back in Israel? Now’s the best time of Shalit’s life. Low on liberty and a social life, but that is more than outweighed by the benefits of separation from Israeli culture and practices* . He’s in a relative paradise of civilisation and the charitable hope is that there he remains until the end of his days.