The One State solution is the end of Israel as a Jewish state, plain and simple. It won’t happen until Arabs outbreed Jews in Israel proper, which will probably take a few generations, maybe more if the Jews mount a good baby race.
The Palestinians, for better or (far more likely) for worse, made Hamas an official part of their government. That there are many factions within Hamas is now completely irrelevant. They either police their own, or live with the fact that their newly-earned legitimacy comes with a price, namely that acts of aggression against Israel are no longer “terrorist attacks”. They’re acts of war, as sure as if someone from Fatah did the same. Given our own behavior over the past few years, the US is about the last nation on Earth with any cause to complain about Israeli heavy-handedness. I’d say they’re well within normative bounds presently. Such is the state of the world.
Where do you get that ‘almost all forms of Palestinian hostility will come to an end’ if Israel follows your advice? What indications or past experience do they (Israel) have to guide them that this may be possible…or even probable? Has their experience with, say, the withdrawl from Gaza been positive enough of an indicator for them to follow up strongly with your suggestions?
While true, you do realize that the converse is equally true don’t you? Palestine has been doing the same old shit for decades now, and IT hasn’t worked either. I’d say its definitely time for a change BG…but I think its time for the PALESTINIANS to try something different this time. Because it seems to me that Israel DID try something different and got the same ole same ole as a result.
To paraphrase, I ask you, from the bowels of Hamas (and let me tell you, its pretty yucky here!), could you not be wrong?
For almost 40 years, israel has had to live next door to people who don’t believe Israel should exist…next door to suicide murderers…They were pressured to give land back which they won fair and square in war…and now, hamas digs a tunnel into Israel and kills some Israelis and kidnaps another.
In my opinion, Israel should invade the Gaza strip, the West
Bank…retake the land…secure its borders and act accordingly as to any future event. If the whole world turns against Israel for doing this dastarly act, there would hardly be a ripple of change from the way it is now.
Yoiu know what a better definition for insanity would be than that oft-repeated piece of claptrap? Insanity is accepting a fantasy view of reality despite all obvious evidence to the contrary. Insanity is being absolutely sure that doing A will lead to result B in 100% of the cases, despite the fact that there’s no evidence that A has ever led to B before, despite the fact that the unknown factors in the equation are nearly infinite. Insanity is expecting people to act in a manner completely opposite to their previously displayed behaviour in order to confirm with your view of reality.
I agree with the glum assessments 9of a palestinian state0. the israelis left gaza in OK shape-outside of a few destroyed houses, the area had a basically intact infrastructure. Now, the place is wrecked-the Israelis just destroyed the power plant. How is a palestinian state supposed to survive this way? Does hamas realize what they have done? Or is the palestinian Government counting on MORE aid from the west, to repair the damage-which seems to be an endless cycle.
I do agree that Israel must abandon all settlements ASAP. They are absolutely nothing but trouble and pointless security risks. They also make Palestinian indepedence a joke: it would be like if the US were crisscrossed by special “Canadian-only” highways leading to Canadian-only cities scattered throughout the territory, and getting anywhere in your own country required waiting up to six hours per checkpoint to cross these highways.
That’s probably impossible. I think Sharon’s plan, keep some, dismantle others, based solely on security matters, was the only workable solution. The trouble is, it was unilateral, and regardless of the fact that the other side cannot even agree that Israel is a legitimate state, all unilateral decisions are a priori invalid.
We can argue forever about the pros and cons of the establishment of Israel (I’m not fan of the history myself), but it’s done. The Arabs lost that war, and there’s no erasing the past without another war. Some of the settlements are as permanent and intrinsic to Israel’s economy and security now as the undisputed territory itself, and reparations in the form of a simplistic land swap are hopelessly unrealistic. If the parties can’t sit down and agree that this is the reality, the conflict is insoluble. Right or wrong, fair or unfair, the reality is the Palestinians can choose to lose a little more, or a lot. The violations of the past will never be made right, the bloodbath on both sides is now so deep there is an endless list of grievances. Somebody has to give up, and that somebody is the Palestinians. By hitching their wagon to Hamas, they have put themselves on a path to a war in which they will most certainly suffer a crushing defeat without the rest of the Arab world rising to their defense. That won’t happen.
One thing I never hear mentioned but I’ve always been curious about is why only Israel has to give up territory for a Palestinian state. Historically speaking, when the Palestinians rejected the UN partition, at that point there WAS really no Palestine (not that there ever was a soveriegn Palestine before in any case, but thats another matter). Part of the reason they DID reject it was at the urging of several of the neighboring states (who wanted to resolve things via war). Why can’t Jordan and Egypt (and perhaps Syria) ALSO give up land to make a contiguous Palestine possible? After all, its not like any of THOSE countries are innocent bystanders in this whole mess…or that their own borders are sacrosanct or something (with the exception of Egypt I think the rest were created by the Euro’s out of the wreckage of the old Ottoman Empire…IIRC). I’m obviously glossing over quite a bit here, but why is this never even considered as a resolution? (sorry if this question is a hijack)
Because Egypt and Jordan want nothing to do with the Palestinians, and refuse to accept any responsibility for them. And I suppose they have the right to do that, as they’re not occupying powers.
What, put things back where they were a few years ago?! And then what? How would you have Israel deal with the Palestinians under its rule? What makes you think they would be any more submissive or tractable than they have been in the past?
For one thing, because Israel does not legally have any territory east of the Green Line, except for East Jerusalem; the remainder was occupied but never annexed. So, technically, Israel is not being asked to give up any territory.
For another thing, it will be impossible for the Palestinians to build an economically viable state if Israel holds on to its West Bank settlements and corridors between them – and controls Palestine’s border with Jordan, which it seems fixed on doing even post-“independence.”
Um, not exactly. The majority of the population of Jordan is composed of Palistinians, ruled over by a non-Palistinian King - sort of eliminates any chance of having nothing to do with them.
Those Palistinians in Jordan at one time rose up against said king, and were massacred (an event known as “Black September”).
What the hell are you talking about man? Jordan IS Palestine. Its the major part of the British Mandate in fact. As for Egypt, they were instrumental and at the core of the original fuckupage…they certainly played their part. I really just tossed them in, as I think Jordan is really at the heart of who should give up some land…if we are all fired set to make a viable Palestinian homeland and all. But Egypt isn’t exactly some third party with nothing to do with this mess.
Well, thats kind of the key isn’t it? Few Palestinians are likely to say ‘Hey! Maybe we should stop attacking Israel, acknowledge their right to exist and give peace a chance!’…are they? So, its sort of a circular arguement we have here, no? Most fucked up Catch-22 situations are. However, its interesting that you want Israel to try something different, since what they have tried isn’t working and all, but come back with this when I suggest that perhaps…just perhaps mind you…that the Palestinians may wish to give that a shot themselves.
Technically. Thats pretty hollow though, since they occupy that territory. I agree that Israel SHOULD have annexed that territory or ceased to occupy it. One of the fuck ups THEY made, IMHO.
Not if Jordan gave them border territory equal to what they currently have. And if Egypt gave them territory equal to Gaza, perhaps along the border (South) so that it would tie into territory they possess to the east.
Of course, I’m not all fired up about this Palestinian homeland in any case. I think it should be annexed by Jordan and have done with this whole stinking mess. I realize though that this is going to be a fairly unpopular stance around here though…
BTW cmkeller, Jordan and Egypt (and nearly all of the other Arab nations in the region) want nothing to do with Palestine or the Palestinians. That excuse however doesn’t seem to hold for the Israeli’s though, so I don’t see why it should for them either. They certainly contributed as much or more than Israel did to the current situation…and they should be part of the solution, even if that means they have to make some sacrifices as well.
Here is an interesting site that gives some brief details and shows the progression of events in the form of some crude maps. Its got a bit of propaganda in there, and its pretty brief, but essentially looks (reasonably) sound as far as the major facts goes. Just put it in here as an FYI in case anyone doesn’t know the bare bones of the history.
No, of course not. Because if they do that at this point, the Israelis will never leave the West Bank. You can reasonably ask the Palestinians to accept Israel’s right to exist, but you cannot reasonably ask them to accept Israel’s permanent presence east of the Green Line.
And attacking Israel has thus far accomplished…what exactly? Maybe going into complete peace mode would have the effect of creating mounting world wide pressure on Israel to get out of that territory once and for all…with no security excuses? As you said earlier, the same ole same ole doesn’t seem to be having much effect except continueing the cycle of violence. And frankly Israel pretty much has the moral high ground (IMHO…I realize that some here on the board and many in Europe disagree)…especially after Gaza and the subsequent events. What little sympathy I once had for a Palestinian homeland has been almost completely erroded away with decades of this crap. And I don’t think I’m the only one to lose sympathy for these guys.
What the hell are you talking about man? Jordan IS Palestine. Its the major part of the British Mandate in fact. As for Egypt, they were instrumental and at the core of the original fuckupage…they certainly played their part. I really just tossed them in, as I think Jordan is really at the heart of who should give up some land…if we are all fired set to make a viable Palestinian homeland and all. But Egypt isn’t exactly some third party with nothing to do with this mess.