Yeah… no. I don’t see how that benefits me.
:dubious: SFW? I said it is a solution, not that it benefits you. But, it does benefit you the way ending Apartheid benefited South African whites – by peaceably ending the conflict. Unless you think Grumman is right in post #18 – and I very much doubt he is right, but an Israeli would have some better notion.
Nonsense. You don’t think Muslims can learn to practice democracy? Not even if they’re brought into an existing democratic system? The ones in the U.S. manage well enough.
How have White South Africans benefited from the ending of the conflict? You can say it was for the greater good, but I’ve not seen anything to suggest that Whites are happier, safer or richer because of the end of apartheid. What are you thinking of?
Regardless, just making the West Bank a voting section of Israel is simply a nonstarter. Never gonna happen.
name me more than one Muslim majority/plurality country on the face of the Earth that Freedom House rates as an electoral democracy. 100% of Jewish countries are, and have consistently been for decades.
Individual Muslims can, but Muslim societies are pretty bad at it.
That they no longer have to live in fear of the possibility of a race war, which, if it had happened, could well have involved war-to-the-knife ethnic cleansing, on both sides, with the whites getting the worst of it.
So they lost political power, they lost economic power and crime in general has increased but according to you they benefited because the possible race war you know they would have lost never happened. That’s your argument?
Grumman’s post is very, very cynical, and features very little faith in the basic goodness of the human nature. On the other hand, this is the Middle East. No matter how cynical you get, there’s no way you’re even close to being cynical enough.
So yeah, I pretty much agree with him. And furthermore, seeing as I’m the only Israeli voter in this thread, I’m the only person here you have to convince otherwise. So go ahead. Convince me to give people who utterly hate me power over my life. Convince me that I should allow my country to turn into another Syria, Lebanon or Iraq. Knock yourself out.
Have the Palestinians ever said that they would stop terrorism and give up arms and live peacefully with the Jewish citizens of Israel in exchange for being given voting rights in - for want of a better name - Greater Isreal? Have the Palestinians living in the West Bank ever indicated that full Israeli citizenship is all they’re asking for?
You can’t make peace by giving people something they don’t want.
South Africa had a partner: Nelson Mandela. There are no Mandelas among the Palestinians. The violent extremists see to that.
The other problem is that there is no final peace that Palestinians will accept, only truces while they gather their strength to conquer Israel.
If a solution doesn’t benefit a majority of Israelis, then they won’t (and shouldn’t) support that solution. I suspect Rhodesia is a more accurate model of a one-state solution then South Africa in the long run.
“Gather their strength to conquer Israel?” That’s kind of like Andorra gathering strength to conquer Europe. That’s like Rhode Island gathering strength to conquer the U.S. There isn’t enough strength there for that to happen.
Weird hyperbole. If you’d stuck to something realistic, you might have had a point. “While they disrupt the peace by violence.” “While they launch rockets.” “While they conduct a diplomatic offensive.” All of those things are within their reach, and harmful to Israel.
Don’t overplay your hand: you lose the pot and make it harder for people to tell when you’re serious.
Not if the Palestinians get their “right of return” that Indians/Pakistanis, Turks/Greeks have been denied in Partition and Lausanne, because then they’ll demographically flood out the Jews’ political power. Also, their terror is meant to provoke mass emigration from Israel of Jews and cripple their economy.
It’s delusional, but that’s the plan. They’ve never come close to a final settlement and have never even indicated that they would accept one. They are only willing to negotiate certain things, like “You get out of the West Bank and we’ll stop attacking you in the West Bank.”
This conflict isn’t going to end until one side is exterminated. And the source of that extermination may very well be the Sun expanding and making the Earth uninhabitable. Both sides want the exact same pieces of land, and are unwilling to compromise. What could possibly make people think that there will ever be peace? It would take an entire about-face by one side, treating the other side with respect for an entire generation, for there to be a true desire for peace. Right now, the leaders on both sides want conflict as it drives their political goals, and they have the backing of enough of the people on their side to remain in power. Until that demographic is completely turned over, it’s not going to change.
I do think Muslims can learn to practice democracy and know that some of them already do. I don’t think that the hypothetical ones in a united Israel can given the nature of the conflict and the deep-seated anger in that region. I think if Israel gets a Muslim majority from the descendants of those who used to live on that land, the Jews will be in serious trouble
As the only Israeli voter in this thread, what do you think the right course of action is?
here’s an interesting item: And people wonder why America stands with Israel, not the Palestinians. And why our politicians (except Obama) know that pretty well.
It’d be nice if you provided some sort of evidence that Obama hates Israel, as often as you say it.
I didn’t watch the video, but judging from the title, it shows a woman destroying an Israeli flag. It is apparently non-violent protest. This trips your outrage meter why?
I consider myself a strong supporter of Israel, as well as a support of Obama and the Democratic Party, but I’m unhappy with Obama for the opposite reason as you.
The settlements are not just a red herring; they are a major encroachment into any future Palestinian state. I wouldn’t ask Israel to abandon the settlements without real peace, but they should be asked to stop new construction in these illegal settlements. At one point that seemed to be Obama’s position, but he caved in to Bibi.
(In GD I once said as much and was rebutted with the baffling non sequitur “Israel is sovereign, so we can’t ask them to do anything.”)
Disclaimer: I’m not invited to the President’s daily intelligence briefings; it’s silly for me to second-guess Obama’s positions.