Equality of women Democracy Rule of law Religious freedom Sexual preference is not a crime Education Industrialization World literature Modern science modern health care freedom of speechcivilian rule
When Israel was formed in 1948, it brought these and other Western values to a part of the world dominated by corrupt dictators, where women were forced to wear burkas and prohibited from working or even driving, where gays could be stoned to death, where Christians and Jews could be deprived of rights, where culture, science, health care, education were at low levels.
Israel shared its values with its Arab neighbors
– Arabs could be full citizens
– Female Arab citizens in Israel have full rights, unlike their sisters in Arab lands
– Hebrew University education has been available to Arabs and Muslims
– Modern medical care was made available to Palestinians
– Jobs in Israel have been made available to Palestinians who were not Israeli citizens.
Good treatment of Arabs is a danger to every Arab tyrant. Israel sets an example of proper government, which threatens the rule of these corrupt dictators. No wonder they have been attacking ever since it was founded. Fighting Israel helps these thugs to remain in power.
What puzzles me is this: Why do many posters here routinely take the side of the oppressive bigots against Israel? Are they militarists? Homophobes? Anti-Christian? Do they want women to be oppressed? Do they prefer a corrupt dictatorship, rather than democracy? Do they feel threatened by freedom of speech?
I certainly don’t think so. Quite the reverse. So, why do they support people who represent positions that they detest?
Lenin is supposed to have referred to blind defenders and apologists for the Soviet Union in the Western democracies as “useful idiots.” Is there a parallel here?
The problem, unfortunately, is primarily based on religious claims to territory.
—Why do many posters here routinely take the side of the oppressive bigots against Israel?—
You are using a pretty broad brush here. There are many many different opinions expressed on these boards, and being critical of Israel does not mean that someone also supports the tyrrany of Arab leaders either.
Personally, I think the hard-line edge of Israel’s leadership and the Arab extremists are basically working together: unintentionally. Neither wants peace (the Arabs want to push the Jews into the sea, the hard-liners see peace as simply a dangerous opportunity for terrorists to regroup without Israeli military being able to monitor and assasinate people in Palestine directly, and all ceded land as simply a strategic position from which attacks can be launched on Israel).
And then Buckner can move this puppy to the Pit, since the OP’s only premise seems to be that the posters here who routinely side against Israel must be doing so because they must be militarists, or Homophobes, or Anti-Christian, or they must want women to be oppressed, or they must prefer a corrupt dictatorship, rather than democracy, or they must feel threatened by freedom of speech.
Oh, I’m terribly sorry. I didn’t realize that Israel was the only reason that anyone in that region had any rights, freedoms etc.
and I was also completely unaware that the only possible choices for a liberal like me was to either completely support Israel’s every action/move or to desire complete subjugation of entire genders, relgions and sexual orientation, in that region.
Actually, it is. Egypt, the Islamic nation physicaly closest to Israel is one of the best respectors of its citizen’s rights.
Jordan follows closely. After that, things get a lot worse.
And, if you espouse one standard of morality, and support people who attack that standard on a daily basis, then I can legitimately criticise you and your alleged standard of integrity.
Sorry guys, there is nothing insulting about this OP. If you feel you have an answer to the question, why not give it a shot? If not, maybe try a different thread - there’s lots of them out there.
But I would phrase the question a bit differently: why is it that those who are concerned about human rights of the Palestinians are not similarly worked up about human rights abuses by the Palestinians, and other similar regimes. For some reason, it seems that the Palestinians have become a cause celebre in left wing circles, and while many also oppose a lot of the Arab regimes, it is not with nearly the same fervor. Strange.
Apparently the board has a new filter that highlights Truth and Logic in pretty colors. And since only December’s post is highlighted, I must assume he’s right.
Izzy It is precisely because you’d word it differently. As I suggested, it’s not an ‘either/or’ situation. It’s perfectly possible/ probable for folks to abhor violence, injustice etc, no matter the source. This fact seems to routinely escape the OP.
I disagree, if nothing else the phrasing was poor and leaned towards the insulting. But it is not worth debating over IMHO, so I’ll just leave it at that.
I certainly am and I think I’ve expressed that a couple of thousand times by now( okay, maybe only a couple of hundred ). Frankly I’m not of the opinion that many of the debaters in GD are all that blase about undemocratic Arab regimes. shrug Maybe I’m wrong.
However I think there is a real tendency to hold a democratically elected government like Israel’s to a far higher standard of behavior than the murderous thugs running the PLO. Mostly they live up that higher standard, but there are occasional slips. Is it biased to think that way? Well, not to my thinking. I regard it as complimentary. But that may be an issue for another thread.
Underdogism, perhaps.
But regardless, there are real issues that need to be addressed on both sides. Recognizing that Israel has relatively speaking cleaner hands, does not exempt them from criticism. One can counter december’s argument ( and perhaps yours ) by claiming that perhaps the right-wing can be too quick to gloss over questionable Israeli tactics or actions because they find their politics ( and culture ) more palatable.
Bosda: I disagree. I think I’d take the government of Tunisia and Morocco over either Egypt OR Jordan.
Missed Bosda’s post. A. what Tamerlane suggested, and B. the premise also presupposes that no other global entity has any influence in the region. I think that’s rather difficult to support. (not that I’m claiming the sort of strong tie that binds say, GB w/USA, but rather that as nations extend themselves into the global economy, educate their students in other nations etc, that influences the behavior/climate at home.)
Regarding the actual subject matter of the OP, I have no opinion but as regarding the Pit accusations,
I can’t believe I’m gonna do this but…
I’m on december’s side on this one
This is Great Debates after all. december has presented us with a viewpoint and (as long as he can back it all up with cites etc) there should be no problem.
And I quite liked the colourful bit at the top (must’ve taken him ages to type).
No idea what he was talking about though.
I like december. I vote we keep him here. He can be like our little pet.
As you put it I would debate away. As december put it he has made a more or less direct (and unfounded) attack on amongst others me.
That he makes it passably polite by adding:
Is tainted by his history of lashing out at me for holding anti-Israel sentiments and insinuations that I be anti-Semitic despite continuous efforts from my side to show him that I am in fact neither opposed to Israel nor hold any grudge towards people of Jewish creed.
To boot he is wrong in asuming these things about ‘many posters’. I have a hard time imagining even a tiny few posters that would support or condone any oppressive regime including Arab ones. It is yet another willful attempt at agitprop polarization serving to paint the Israeli/Palestinian conflict in white and black. This kind of support pandering is offensive and deserves a reply that I cannot give freely in this forum.
Nevertheless I will happily respond to the serious part of the OP the way you rephrased it, but only when I am free to respond to the offensive accusation that I feel has been raised against me.
Can you provide a link to any post in which someone has trumpted the glory of Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, etc.?
Or are you going to claim that because the PA has corrupt leaders (since Israel keeps imprisoning the uncorrupted ones) we should take the side of the oppressive bigots of Likud?
december, you initially looked like an intelligent (if somewhat slanted) poster, but you have become increasingly divorced from reality in the last month.
That leads to my follow-up. The magnitude of atrocities by Muslims against Muslims and Arabs against Arabs dwarf the anti-Palestinian actions taken by Israel. E.g., civil war in Indonesia, horrendous war between Iran and Iraq a few years ago, actions by Saddam Hussein against Kurds. Actions by Hafez Assad against his people. The routine execution of moderate Palestinians by Arafat’s thugs. The thousands upon thousands of Afghan civilians murdered by the Taliban during their horrible rule.
But I see far less notice of these much more horrible actions. Sympathy for mis-treated Palestinians isn’t the basic motivation.
Thanks for the lead-in, wring.
[sub]wring isn’t my sock puppet. I swear.[/sub]
DDG, you might re-read the OP, particularly the words, “I certainly don’t think so. Quite the reverse.”
However, this tendency doesn’t apply uniformly. You wouldn’t say,
However I think there is a real tendency to hold a democratically elected government like the EU to a far higher standard of behavior than the murderous thug Slobodan Milocevic
Nor would you say,
*However I think there is a real tendency to hold a democratically elected government like Spain’s to a far higher standard of behavior than the murderous thug Pinochet *
Why does this principle apply to Israel, but not the others?
BTW today Israel announced a total ban on Palestinian travel in much of the West Bank, following a series of attacks by Palestinian militants. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2172260.stm
This predictiable result of the terrorism tends to cut Palestinians off from the culture and civil liberties of Israel. This serves the purposes of the tyrants.
Some day, I would like december to stop manipulating posters on this board. I would also like him to cease setting up false dichotomies as OP’s. And stop the whole ‘surely I cannot believe that they’d prefer bigotry, yet that seems to be…’ crap.
Then in part I think you’re blind. But insomuch as the Palestinian situation is more front-page news it is because of the strategic sensitivity of the Middle East and most of all the very close historic andcultural ties of Europe and North America to Israel.
Then what is? Are you accusing many posters here of being closet anti-semites?
Yes, I would. I expect no better from Milosevic than to order the slaughter of civilians to further a geo-political agenda. I do not expect the EU to do the same.
*However I think there is a real tendency to hold a democratically elected government like Spain’s to a far higher standard of behavior than the murderous thug Pinochet *
Yes, I would. I expect no better than for Pinochet to have ordered the assassinations of opposition journalists. I do not expect the government of Spain to do the same.
Care to try again?
Shockingly, I partially agree. It is indeed the tactics of terrorist organizations like Hamas to foster separation, alienation, and hatred. They thrive on it. That’s why, as much as I sympathize with Israel’s Catch-22 situation in this regard, actions like this make me wince. It is, in its own peculiar way, appeasing terrorists by doing exactly what they want.
). Frankly I’m not of the opinion that many of the debaters in GD are all that blase about undemocratic Arab regimes. shrug Maybe I’m wrong.