Mrs. Plant has since complained, “You make it sound likes it happens every day. It happened once.” 
To Carnivourous Plant and Captain Amazing, are you realkly serious?
Something that Shakespeare wrote how many centuries ago has anything to do with whether or not you need a safe place today? When the KKK turns up on the front lawn, US law enforcement is gonna do nothing? Suffering from a persecution complex much?
Part of my heritage is Scots and part is Irish - both of which underwent wars with the English, so now I need a “safe place” unless the British comes looking for me?
Whereas sixty years ago the British took parts in a war - and lost ten of thousands of men - when someone decided he really didn’t like the Jews.
12th Century or 20th Century. Hmm.
Let’s not forget the help in setting up modern Israel. Balfour Declaration and all that. No, let’s concentrate on the 12th Century instead. :rolleyes:
Ahhhhh yes, if you notice history and see a pattern roughly 1500+ years in the making that was still going strong just a generation or two ago and never truly went away, you must have a persecution complex. Why, if you note that even now otherwise ‘respectable’ people claim that the Jews control the United States government and that American Jews who have different political opinions are really traitorous puppets of dastardly Global Zionism, well, then you must be paranoid, too!
Whats wrong with those Jews, anyways? Can’t they just stop being so hysterical and accept that people totally don’t mean any harm when they allege that there is a covert Jewish cabal of evil criminal masterminds orchestrating global misery and war on behalf of their international, traitorous Zionist ideology?
I mean, come on, it’s not like any bad has ever happened before when people have made those claims.
Oh, and Amanset? Your argument reveals that your claims are based on shockingly superficial understanding of history.
You point to the Balfour Declaration, but ignore the White Papers, arming the Arabs while disarming the Jews and frustrating Jewish attempts at self defense for as long as possible while allowing Arab armies and ‘irregulars’ to gather and organize for their announced war of annihilation. In short, you point to Britain doing absolutely nothing to help set up Israel and many things in its power to aid the violent destruction of the nascent Israeli state, and claim that should make people feel better about the UK’s commitment to a Jewish homeland. :rolleyes:
You point to the UK’s role in WW II, while ignoring that they did nothing to help the Jews up to the point that the UK joined the war, and that the UK in fact did its best to frustrate any significant Jewish refugee population from seeking safety within its borders. You go further and claim that somehow the war was about someone who had something against Jews, rather than the rather more salient point of someone with a massive military complex backing him up who was dedicated to complete global domination by force.
Tell me, what exactly did the UK do after Kristallnacht?
Of course, the silly statements you and ben have made aren’t the only ones in this thread. Nopers. Other gems include but are not limited to the argument that modern updates of the Blood Libel which darkly hint at a massive international Jewish organ thieving conspiracy are not anti-Semitic. Or maybe they’re not racist but just bigoted since if you squint just right, they’re only about a conspiracy that permeates the highest levels of Israeli society. I await the pure hearted defense when and if someone alleges that the ANC is involved in a global conspiracy to steal watermelons and rape white women. This is, in fact, perfectly not-racist as many other groups have been accused of theft and/or a propensity towards rape.
Bonus points for the “I already have a worldview such that these accusations of a massive organ thieving ring sound credible to me. Obviously, it is Israel’s fault that I might be tempted to believe such things…”
Double super bonus points for “… and so the burden of proof is now on Israel to prove that this story which makes no sense and has no proof, is not in fact true. Omniscience should nicely satisfy the epistemological necessity quite nicely. So what are those Israelis trying to hide by not debunking this?”
Blargh. Same old same old.
At best, the article was the worst kind of bigotry directed at Israel as a nation rather than the Jews as a people. Yay, we can rejoice, the author is merely a bigot and not a racist. Whee!
Of course, at worst it was deliberately updating the Blood Libel. In either case Israel’s conduct was a bit self defeating.
There is simply no effective response that could be taken. Sue the paper for libel? It’s costly and keeps the issue in the news, making the same sort of people who’ve posted such comments in this thread ask “What is Israel hiding?” or “Why can’t they just disprove these claims?” Protest to the Swedish government? You get an apology that’s quickly retracted with a nice note that, if the Israelis would care to burn a few cars and kill a nun or three, then maybe some sort of apology could be worked out. Appeal to people the world over to condemn racism and bigotry… even when directed at Jews and Israelis? That’s just what those Zionists want you to do!!!
Israel should’ve just let it slide.
Not today. There’s not that much antisemitism in the US today, at least not organized government violence or discrimination. But 50 years from now? 100 years from now? Who knows. 100 years ago, nobody thought the Holocaust was going to happen either. Germany was one of those advanced, “tolerant” countries, where it wasn’t bad to be a Jew. Then, only 30 years after that…
One of the constants of history is that the Jews have always gotten fucked over by the non-Jews ruling over them, usually when they didn’t expect it, and generally, when that happens, nobody else really cares all that much. Well, when it happens next time, if Israel’s around, at least somebody’s going to care, and maybe something will get done.
I think some people are mistaking history for something that happened in the past.
I’ve heard it described as a nightmare, somewhere or other…
I say again, as has been said many times in this thread.
Yes Jews have been fucked over in the past, and some people are still doing it.
That doesn’t mean that nobody can ever level any accusation against them ever again.
For what its worth, on the balance of what we now know I don’t think there is any sort of organ harvesting is going on, at all.
But that somebody saw something that makes him wonder doesn’t mean that the Swedish govt is anti Jew.
No, no-one should ever level false, sladerous accusations agaisnt anyone. Didn’t your mother teach you it was wrong to lie?
OK, Just a quick note for those that think we can’t criticise Israel - is this the act of a reponsible govt with nothing to hide?
2004 New Zealand angrily denounced Israel and imposed diplomatic sanctions on it after two suspected Mossad agents were jailed for six months for trying on false grounds to obtain a New Zealand passport. Uriel Zosha Kelman and Eli Cara, were convicted of passport fraud in Auckland. Israel has ignored requests for an explanation and an apology.
I was looking for something else but came across this…it seems kinda pertinent to post it while accusations are being tossed around about govts not doing enough
Sweden isn’t the whole world and shouldn’t have to answer to things than happened in Spain or Germany or wherever. And in any case I think you’ll find that Sweden has more experience with persecuting Danes than it has with persecuting Jews.
Ridicule is the way to go. Organers, Jew-gum, the Mickey Mouse conspiracy, the Pepsi conspiracy. Grind them all together and make fun of it.
And how is that a strawman?
Look, at the end of the day why must any accusation against Israel turn into an argument about 2000 years of history?
Can you never take anything at face value? Sometimes a nasty accusation is just that - a nasty accusation.
Also by throwing around accusations like you do, and seeming to claim some sort of exceptionalism because of your Jewishness I don’t believe does you (Israel) any favours
I totally support Israels right to be.
What I hate, and what I hate anywhere is a “religious” state. Whether it be a Christian, Muslem or Jewish foundation. I don’t believe explicit religion plays any part in international relations, and it shouldn’t.
By saying that Sweden needs to take some action against these accusations because they are a rehash of blood libels you are turning Israel from a nation, that has every right to be, into a church. As a Church people are resistant to it (and I believe rightly so). After all, part of the current problem in Palestine is because on the Palestinian side they claim some sort of divine right to Jeruselem, a right that they get from their “holy book”
50 years from now? 100 years from now?
Maybe it’ll be cool as fuck to be Jewish.
Maybe we’ll all be dead anyway.
Maybe aliens will have invaded.
Maybe the Jews will have enslaved us all.
No. Clearly people will be hating the Jews. Let’s just consider that.
Give me a fucking break.
Here’s an idea - stop shouting “I’M A JEW!” everywhere you fucking go.
Most of the planet’s 6 billion population who are not one of the 20 million jews, are sick of hearing about your Jehovah-loving bollocks… well, I am anyway.
Judging by the fact that we’ve got a tradition of anti-Semitism that’s centuries old and still going pretty strong, that’s not exactly a wild assumption.
Speaking of the necessity of possessing an historical understanding, still no retractions on your fairly major historical inaccuracies?
Should I expect them any time soon?
In any case, the point that you are studiously missing is that over 15+ centuries, there has never been a nation that’s served as a true, permanent safe haven for Jews. Just a couple generations ago much of Europe actively cooperated with or condoned an organized campaign of genocide against the Jews. Even today hate crimes against Jews are disturbingly frequent or on the rise in a great many countries, including European ones. The idea that a group of people who’ve been relentlessly persecuted for virtually all of medieval and modern history, in pretty much every place they’ve ever lived just need to ‘get over it’ and be really optimistic?
That they should just figure that everything has totally changed and their people will never need a refuge ever again, ever, and that even having one just in case is silly and paranoid?
I believe the phrase is “give me a fucking break.”
Willfully ignoring history is not the same as learning its lessons.
I will answer your question with a question. Who, at any point, has said that one can never ever criticize Israel?
It’s a silly claim that serves the same purpose as the oft repeated canard that anybody who criticizes anything at all about Israel will be called an anti-Semite.
Before I answer that one with the same general question as above, I’ll just point out that when a paper publishes an article using an ancient anti-Semitic slur, the fact that it’s an ancient anti-Semitic slur will be pointed out.
Other things, not so much.
Sure, we get the standard apologia, but come on. It rings as hollow as folks who’d argue that alleging that the ANC is involved in a vast watermelon stealing white-woman-raping conspiracy just happens to be a ‘nasty allegation’.
First, I personally don’t ‘throw around’ accusations. More often than not the rationalizations of various apologists are the real humor, like claims that Jimmy Carter isn’t a liar or a bigot, despite inarguable proof of the facts… because he also builds houses for charity. 
Second, I’m not sure what would cause you to create such an absurd claim of “Jewish exceptionalism”. Why, do you think, you’ve gone beyond mere strawmen and are now discussing a fictional ‘Jewish superiority complex’? Why, further, do you believe that it is somehow tied to doing favors for anybody, at all? Is that a variation of the argument that Jews/Israelis are to blame for anti-Semitism and/or anti-Israel bigotry?
Bwah?
Who, in this thread brought up “blood libels”?
Aren’t blood libels historically anti jewish?
By linking the current (stupid) claims to blood libel they are being linked to some sort of absurd anti jewish cabal that is out to persecute all jews.
Or perhaps an of-the-cuff response to someone that seemed to think that something that Shakespeare wrote in the 17th Century about something that happened in the 12th Century was somehow relevant to things today in the 21st Century.
The whole period was a mess, mainly due to that nasty war where we desperately needed help from anyone, but the truth remains that the British were instrumental in the creation of the state of Israel. If you can’t accept that then I really haven’t got anything I can do to help you. The hatred in you already runs too deep.
You heard it here first, WW2 had nowt to do with the Jewish people. Jesus, do you know anything about German history between WW1 and WW2? I’m quite honestly flabbergasted.
Relaxed some of the restrictions for people emigrating from Germany. This allowed, according to my short search now, 9000-10000 Jewish children into the UK.
Not perfect. Not everything they possibly could have done, but also not the nothing that you seem to imply that they did. In fact, I’m struggling to understand what your point here is. What should they have done? Opened the borders to anyone? Try and answer without using knowledge gained by hindsight.
No, you’ve been making them too. Not that I consider what I wrote “silly”.
<Load of crap here from FinnAgain ignored as that’s all it is worth>
As has been pointed out, the Government condemning or otherwise interfering with the article is against the Swedish Constitution. The apology has been retracted (even if it has - anyone got a cite for that?) because several politicians in Sweden are now in trouble precisely because they commented on it. The Social Democrats have reported the incident to the body that deals with constitutional issues.
You want them to break their Constitution and ignore the freedom of the press? Seriously?
Oh shut up. Now who’s making silly statements?
Yes because no-one has ever publicly defended Jews and condemned anti-semitism ever. Just shut up now, you’re making yourself look like an idiot.
For a start, refer to what I wrote earlier regarding the book about the Holocaust the Swedish government distributed throughout Sweden. Note the comment written at the back by Carl Bildt, one of the people now in trouble for constitutional issues in Sweden.
Gah. It just isn’t worth bothering. You’ve convinced yourself and just won’t listen to anyone.
Or complain through the correct channels rather than go into a hissy fit when another country doesn’t break its constitution specially for them.
It seem that Aftonbladet getssued.
It will be interesting to see how it ends.
I’m not going to look it up, but I’m willing to bet that it was someone who noticed that an allegation of an international Jewish conspiracy dedicated to murdering gentiles in order to steal their ‘vital essence’ is, in fact, an example of allegations about an international Jewish conspiracy dedicated to murdering gentiles in order to steal their ‘vital essence’.
Admittedly, this is just a hunch.
Of course… it has nothing to do with anything, So, just to get the situation clear:
You are not going to address anything that I just pointed out to you? You are not even going to retract your strawmen?
And, instead, you are going to pretend that anybody here, at all, ever, has in any way, shape or form so much as obliquely implied that the author of the article in question was a member of an organized anti-Semitic group?
Do you honestly not understand that he was talking about a pattern in European society that persisted right smack up until the modern era and is still a problem in the "post"modern era?
No, actually, that’s not the truth.
That’s what those of us acquainted with the truth like to call “non truth”. Perhaps “fiction”. Maybe “fantasy”. The fact that you’ve, very quickly, backed off the facts and refused to even address the factual refutations to your claim, coupled with this silly preemptive ad hom fallacy kinda seal the deal.
The UK actively had policies designed to frustrate immigration to Israel, the creation of Israel and the successful defense of Israel. There are all historical facts easily verifiable. That you can’t even address them speaks for itself.
Yet again, the fact is that WW II had virtually nothing to do with the Jewish people any more than it did with the Rom or homosexuals.
Yet again, the fact that you cannot address let alone rebut the facts I have mentioned pretty much seals the deal. You cannot point to any substantive reaction that the UK (or most of the rest of the world, for that matter) took in the aftermath of Kristallnacht. Or the Nuremberg Laws. You cannot point to any actual organized effort on the part of most of the Allies to save the Jews, because such a thing never happened. Oh, and the UK and US together could have helped stop or at least slow down the Nazi death camps’ operation, but they chose not to.
:smack: This is their great campaign to save the Jews and run a war on their behalf? Almost a whole 1/5 of a percent of the number of Jews who were butchered? You could at least point to the roughly 100K Jews who were momentarily allowed to immigrate before things got really bad, at least then you’d be pointing to about one and a half percent. Of course, the facts are still that the UK did virtually nothing after the Evian Conference in 1938.
Oh, and just to clear up the facts of the matter since you are again mistaken, Kristallnact was in 1938. The UK actually allowed fewer Jews to gain asylum in their country after that point, not more. The fact, that you’re missing, is that the UK actually responded to Kristallnacht and everything that happened after it by issuing the White Paper of 1939. Just part of how they helped establish the state of Israel in your narrative, I guess.
If you know the actual history of the time period, you don’t need to use hindsight. The world knew what was going on. It was no secret. By the Evian Conference the Nuremberg Laws had been in force for years, and the world knew that Hitler was, at the very least, engaged in the systematic and widespread de jure persecution of Jews. Kristallnact itself was widely reported. By late in 1938 the British press had already reported about the concentration camps that Jews were being forced into.
The UK’s reaction was to tighten immigration policy and prohibit more than a handful of Jews from escaping to what would become Israel.
What a charming non sequitur. Of course, you could’ve just said “yeah, they retracted the apology”.
And you could also stop this “Why do you hate [del]America[/del] Sweden’s constitution and freedom of speech!?!?!” stuff. We’ve all seen the cites, and nothing provided here actually says, in any way at all, that a Swedish diplomat could not support freedom of speech while, at the same time, saying that something wasn’t aesthetically pleasing and that they were sorry that it was insulting.
And please quit this silly line about how this is all about freedom of speech and blah blah blah. First off, nobody has requested that freedom of speech be curtailed. Second, as of at least a few months ago, Sweden still had the SBB charged with, yep, censoring films. And Sweden has, yep, rules against hate speech.
Are you not aware of the events of the “Cartoon Crisis”, or do you just have a ‘woosh’ like noise ringing in your ears?
Yes, that is exactly what I was saying. Yep. Oh, no, wait… it’s not. It’s the opposite thing of what I actually said and, in fact, has virtually nothing to do with what I said other than to create a false argument for you to play with while pretending it’s mine. I’m sure the word for that sort of thing will come to me sooner or later.