Sorry–“Naxox”, not “Nanox”.
Must’ve been the Mork And Mindy “nanu nanu” thing kicking in…
Yes, DDG. I was mostly hoping Alessan himself came in to tell me it wasn’t option #1, which I’d find just as despicable as “Israel doesn’t deserve the EU”.
And as said, Nanox doesn’t represent the EU, as he hails from Norway, which is merely in Europe, and not an EU member.
Fair enough, Allesan - I have no reasons to doubt you explanation. Thanks.
Coldfire, you make it sound like U.S. Jews have a monolithic political agenda although this is certainly not what you meant. There are Jewish lobbiests some of whom lobby for Israel or other “Jewish causes” but that doesn’t mean that there is a Jewish lobby. Jews in the U.S. range from Jerry Rubin to Henry Kissenger. I would agree that a Jewish person in the U.S. is more likely to be more pro-Israel but not enough so that you can make any sort of generalization about a random U.S. Jew.
Again, there is a difference between Israeli and Jewish. What do you suppose the so called Jewish lobby in the U.S. lobbies for?
Haj
Um, why, in the Pit, would someone not be allowed to opine that the EU didn’t deserve Israel?
Would someone please ban this fucking fool? Almost 400 posts in a half month of so and 390 of them are this bullshit.
Jolly Jumping Jesus! Where do these people come from? And why do they always make this brain-raking, wit-devoid introductions? Is “hello people I am new here” too passé?
Color me “unamused”.
What continent is the Middle East in anyway? I always thought that it was either in Asia, or was considered a mini-continent of its own.
How is Naxox pronounced?
Found this. Surely there must be people in Israel who are not happy about this. Would they not be permitted to post to that effect here? If so, why not?
You’re right when you say that Jews in America don’t form a monolithic stance, and range in political scope. I didn’t mean to imply the contrary, as you noted. But I think it’s fair to say that in the Israel/Palestine debate, American Jews will choose their own interests over the Palestinian ones. This in itself is again a generalisation: there’ll be Jews who are happy with the way Sharon approaches the currect conflict, and there will certainly be Jews who long for the more stable days of Rabin. Like I said, it’s not a topic which is easily dealt with using oneliners. At the other side of the equation, you’ll find Palestinians who despise Yasser Arafat for his tactics as well. It’s not a black and white issue at all.
DDG, statements like “country/region x doesn’t deserve country/region y” are never welcome in my opinion. Yes, the Pit is the place to air inflammatory personal comments, but we’d like to draw the line at outright nationalism and xenophobia. From wherever or whomever it comes.
There are also U.S. Jews who fully support the Palestinian side and don’t think that Israel should exist at all. I’ve known one or two.
**
Indeed there are and I didn’t mean to imply otherwise.
Still, this whole concept of a “Jewish lobby” is incorrect in my opinion. The implication, when many people say it, is that there is a secret coalition pulling strings and running world politics behind the scenes ala Protocols of the Elders of Zion. There isn’t a Jewish lobby in the U.S. because there isn’t a Jewish agenda in the U.S. like there is for, say, dairy farmers who really do have a homogoneous (hee hee) political agenda.
Haj
Jewish lobby, Smewish lobby.
What our friend Nanox does not realize that the true domestic power behind current U.S. pro-Israel policies is not AIPAC or other political organizations run/funded predominately by Jewish-Americans. Indeed, if they were the key players, the Bushies would have little incentive; in America, the Jewish vote (and more importantly, money) are predominately Democratic. The GOP has long since stopped playing for that vote and that money (with the caveat that they are interested in the Orthodox Jewish vote, which is more ideologically in tune). This is the primary reason that heretofore, the GOP has been less friendly to Israel than the Democratic Party.
Instead, what is happening is that the evangelical Christian political movement has become strongly pro-Israel in it lobbying over the past ten years or so, and they are a fundamental pillar of GOP strength.
Why is the evangical Christian movement so pro-Israel, you ask? Simplicity itself - the end of the world cannot happen until all the Jews are gathered into the Holy Land. No safe and secure Israel, no end of the world.
Hope that makes you feel better.
Sua
Whilst your point adds to the discussion and is valid, SuaSponte, it doesn’t serve as a counterargument to the term or concept “Jewish lobby”. Both Jewish and Christian influences in American politics have been of influence towards the US’s stance in the Israel/Palestine debate: with the notion that Christian influences are more likely to influence the GOP than the Democrats, I’d still say there are significant Jewish influences as well, towards both parties. In fact, it would be highly surprising if there weren’t.
But we can’t reiterate it enough, as hajario does: this doesn’t imply all Jews agree on All Things Israel. So, there’s no such thing as a generic Jewish agenda, but could we at least be realistic and state that influential Jewish people in the US lobby for what they perceive to be in the best interests of Israel? Surely, that’s not too broad a brush there?
Coldfire, when I’m being harangued by some loon about “the Jewish lobby” it’s generally followed by “controlling America” or some variation thereon. That may be why many of us bristle whenever we see “Jewish lobby”; we’ve come to expect a tirade over how the overtly Christian politicians in the U.S. are being forced against their puny wills into doing the bidding of their evil masters, the Jews. Who, for all their supposed power and wealth, have yet to take over the world in any significant fashion.
It wasn’t presented as a counterargument to the (very interesting) “Jewish lobby” digression that’s developed here. Instead it was directed at the blatherings of the OPer.
But as for the disgression, I agree with both points you make.
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It is a longstanding tradition within American politics of ethnicity-based pressure groups seeking to influence U.S. politics towards their “homeland.” Irish-Americans, for one, are past masters of this, and Jewish lobbying to influence policy towards Israel is following in well-trod footsteps.
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hajario’ss argument has always been true, but it has become more true due to the events of the past fifteen years. Jewish lobbying, in terms of U.S. policy towards Israel, had been relatively unified, up until the time of the first intifada, not, however, because there was a Jewish Hive Mind, but because Jewish lobbying organizations attempted to take the same position that the U.S. political parties attempted to take during the Cold War - that politics ends at the water’s edge. In both instances, the concept was honored more in the breach, but that was the intent.
The consensus broke down (in both instances) at the end of the 80s.
Sua
Yes, there are influential (not necessarily famous) Jewish people in the U.S. who lobby for Israel. Maybe we’re down to arguing over semantics but I don’t think that they are “The Jewish Lobby.” They are lobbiests who happen to be Jewish. There are also influential Christians who lobby for Israel and influential Jews who lobby for all sorts of other things that have nothing to do with religion or geopolitics as we’ve said as nauseum. If there’s no generic Jewish agenda, how can there be a Jewish Lobby?
Haj
After xcheopis’ explanation, I can see the negative connotations of the term “Jewish lobby”, of which I was not completely aware. I suppose a better term should be sought then, but I do think we all agree here. Well, except maybe the OP.
Well, usually, when someone posts “the Jewish lobby” followed by “is running the US”, what comes next is a reference to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and the International Jewish Conspiracy. :rolleyes:
And McDonalds, although they can’t use that now, as Jack Greenberg quit.
Yes, Israel is in Asia.
Name: Israel
Continent: Asia
Population: 6,000,000
Religion: Jewish 81%; Muslim 15%; Christian 2% Other 2%