Israel just voted to expel Arafat. My understanding is that the US would be in favor of this except they fear he could do more damage outside the seclusion of his compound. So what is Israel thinking? I am in favor of getting rid of Arafat but I guess I’m not really sure how. What do the teeming millions think?
Ummm… neahh
This essentially means that the Israeli cabinet is saying: “we’d love to kick his sorry ass out’a here, but we can’t do it yet…”
Dan Abarbanel
Personally, I think both Arafat and Sharon should have their sorry asses kicked out if there is to be so much as an inch of progress in the conflict.
Whether or not expelling Arafat will make him more powerful or not…who knows. I’m willing to bet a month’s wages that expelling him will change absolutely nothing.
I think it is an emotional response, born out anger and frustration. A mistake.
I think these empty PR moves are always a mistake. If you want to take a tough line and take the flak and the reprecussions, at least do it for something substantive. This OTOH, will make people feel good for very short time. Then it will backfire.
Arafat has always led the most moderate faction, so if there is a power vacuum conceviably extremists could fill it. Alot of it comes from the Israeli villification of Arafat, yes he has numerous faults, but his connections to the current wave of terrorism are tenous and he has repeatedly shown he is willing to negoitate.
The problem is you could end up with a repeat of the post-Gulf war peace talks where the Palestinians were excluded except for a non-PLO asscoiated few who came as part of the Jordanian delegation. Those peace talks got absolutely nowhere.
The Palestinians would rather not negoitae with Sharon who has far more Palestinian blood on his hands than Arafat has Israeli blood on his hands and this liable to be seen on the Palestinian side as an attempt to replace him with an Israeli puppet.
No, he’s not willing to negotiate. He is not a moderate. His “moderate faction” talks nicely and runs their own terror brigade. He’s done this for years. Sure, their will be a power vaccuum, and the poeple who fill it will be just like Arafat: each potential successor, ith the possible exception of Abbas, runs one of the many local “parties” that run the terror brigades! Arafat negotiates because he doesn’t have to deliver anything. A man who can’t give you anything will always negotiate in exchange for anything.
Cite? :rolleyes:
His negotiations are all contingent on thr Right of Return, a wholly untenable idea to the Israelis. It’d be their death warrant and they know it. Arafat signed many peace accords, but he cannot and will not deliver on his promises. He’s a dictator in search of a nation to command. He has done nothing to help the peace, ever, period. Remember who signed the Oslo Accords, the Camp David Accords, and so forth: the only consistent component in all the failed agreements is him.
In short, if Arafat cannot deliver peace, he is useless and a pitiful obstruction to peace. If he can but chooses not to, then he a monster who must be defanged. Either way, he is of no value except to his associates.
Sharon is a harsh man, but he’s also fair. He gave the Palestinians every opportunity for peace. Their leaders, which are not neccessarily remotely interested in anything Arafat has to say, and some of them are his direct enemies, have rejected this time and time again. If the Palestinians wasnt peace, they need to do it with deeds, not words.
Seems to me that by not setting an actual date for kicking ol’ busy whiskers out, Israel’s vote is a veiled warning to Arafat to give Queria some real power to move against the terrorists, or else he’s gone. If Arafat doesn’t, then maybe Israel will actually exile Arafat with at least tacit approval by the U.S.
Just MHO, but I think Arafat needs to die before anything decent can happen in the Israeli-Palestinian situation.
And DeadJesus, I’m not much of a fan of Sharon either, but the guy was pretty much politically dead before Arafat brought him back to life by launching this stupid, destructive, meaningless intifada. The current intifada has deligitimized the Israeli Left.
Contrast the current intifada with the uprising of the late 80s, which was relatively non-violent and a genuine resistance movement with mostly non-lethal acceptable tactics (boycotts, strikes, rock-throwing, mass civil disobedience, etc.). The intifada of the late 80s, not coincidentally, was led by those living in the territories and not by the fatcats and bureaucrats in the PLO, nor by the sick fucks in Hamas.
I (and many other American Jews, I suspect) really sympathized with the West Bankers and Gazans who fueled that uprising. It caused me to question Israeli tactics, to question the occupation, to question how Israel treated the Palestinians. Now, with the dynamic element in Palestinian politics being Arafat (or Hamas), and the West Bankers and Gazans paying the price for their obstinancy/hatred, it’s really hard to question Israeli responses.
It sucks for the Palestinians caught in the middle, no question. But if I’m an Israeli citizen, and an innocent Palestinian has to die from the collateral damage caused by trying to kill some Hamas asshole in order to protect my fellow Israeli citizens, that’s just the way it has to be.
I’m sorry but you seem to know little about the various Palestinian groups, since it’s inception Fatah has always been the most moderate grouping in the PLO. Yes the al-Asqa matyrs are made up of hardline members of Fatah but they are not part of Fatah.
How many Israelis have been killed in attacks by the PLO (I don’t know but the total number of Israeli detahs in terrorist attacks on Israel 1968-1993 and the signing of principles was 380, during the intifad 2,500 Palestinians have died, when Sharon was defence secretary thousands of Palestinas were massacred by Lebanon phlangists under his command, ot to mention the many other civilians who died whilst he was a general and defence minister.
Well he has agreed in principle to give up the right of return so you are incorrect and you also have to remebr that Israel has never offered top withdraw from the OT.
When has Sharon ever given any oppurtunity for peace? he has unrelentingly attacked them and tried to sabotage the roadmap by eleimnating all refernce to an independent Palestinian stae from it.
If Arafat were to be killed, all hell would probably break loose.
I think this is posturing by the Israelis.
Would it be better if both sides had different leaders?
Which ones?
I was always a big Netanyahu guy.
If I know little, you just proved you know nothing.
If ten men want to kill me and family, and one only wants to kill my children, the one is absolutely not any more acceptable. They are butchers and derserve death.
Good. While I believe your numbers are off, it doesn’t matter. Guess what: those Palestinians were killed because they tend to throw big, heavy rocks are soldiers heads. Let them die. Others die when Israel attacks the teror leaders who send suicide bombers against them. Israelis die because the Palestinians deliberately try to kill civilians.
The usual talking point for the Left is that he “should have stopped” some guerrilas not under his command from killing people he had no obligation to protect, and who were not on israeli soil. Are you just making stuff up now, or have you simply written the post badly?
No, Arafat did not give up the right of return. He talks about giving it up in front of western TV, and then he tals to his palestinians dupes and says the exact opposite. I believe him when he speaks Arabic. And what do you mean by the “OT”? people, do not assume I know what your random acronyms mean.
Sharon backed off from confrontation and removed settlements after the US put pressure on him. Arafat has never delivered on anything, period, hands down. Its the Palestinians who initiate every wave of violence.
The Israelis have tried many leaders, and most of them have been strong and skilled. The fact remains that neither Barak, or Netanyahu nor any other leader can deliver peace, because the palestinian leaderships (and I used plural deliberately, because their is no single group or association, much less a government) do not want it. They simpy will not settle for anything less than a 100% win, and they cannot get that.
Arafat has been restricted to his compound, and most of the Palestinean infrastructure has been destroyed.
Israel then says to him control the militants and we will leave … how is he supposed to control anything when he is caged up and emasculated ?
Seriously I’d like to know.
(Just for the record, I sympathise with Palestineans but can’t condone bombing civilian targets)
The Palestinians do not deal with the terrorist thugs amongst themselves, because they choose not to do so. They have had countless opportunities in the past, and have failed to seize on any of these moments.
The Palestinians have the highest ratio of police to civilian population in the entire world, so making nonexistant excuses for their impotence in dealing with terrorists is an extremely bad argument. Instead of using these weapons that have been given to them, inorder to rid their society of the evil doers, they turn around and wage war and slaughter Israeli, American and other foreign civilians instead. Their revolving door policy on terrorists, is also not a very effective way in dealing with these criminals.
And I don’t believe Israel has stated they wished to expell Arafat, but rather remove him, which could mean a number of things.
It doesn’t really matter how powerful or not Arafat is, because Israel and the US has already stated that they have no desire in dealing with him anymore. He is an obstacle to peace, and just yesterday he was calling for a million martyrs to march onto Jerusalem.
Perhaps a good solution would just be for Arafat to finally meet his demise, as this will lead to a massive rise in tensions, which will lead to a quicker solution to the current conflict. An escalation and a short period of more violence is perhaps preferable to decades more of violence, as has been the case in the past. Either way the Palestinians have some major issues to sort out. Perhaps a civil war is what it needed.
There is no negotiating with Hamas and their ilk, as genocide is their goal.
So, in response to the OP question, I think he might be more powerful in terms of support from the Palestinians, which is evidenced by the supporters coming out to his compound yesterday, but in regards to the current situation Arafat hardly matters at all, he is a nothing, and is seen as such by Israel and the USA, and that’s all that really matters at the end of the day.
Al-Aqsa has now said that if Arafat is expelled, it will “srike everywhere”. The terrorism will increase exponentially. The situation for the Israeli and Palestinian populations will become even more appalling than it already is.
Also, thousands of people are pledging to defend his compound. Any action to remove him will lead to an outright war, and Arafat will almost certainly be “martyred”, leading to total and utter chaos.
I’m inclined to think that this is a cry of anger, rather than a real intent. When even Bush decries the move, you know your hawkishness has exceeded the bounds of reality.
Fatah are the most moderate faction, it’s a simple fact, the rhetoric about ‘killing my family’ is emotive bullshit.
Again not true moist Palestinians have die when there was no danger to anyones life, there are many recorded instants of Israelis delibrately killing Palestinians. The refugees in the camp
The guerrlia’s WERE under his command and it was him who ordered them in there, furthermore the Isreali army provided support to these guerillias by sealing off the camp so no-one could get in or out and launching flares to allow the Guerillas to carry there work at night, also Israeli soldiers were in the camp at the time of the massacre
Of course he’s not given it up yrt as there has been no final settlemnet yet, there’s nothing instrincally wrong with dmanding that international law be adhered to and stolen land be returned, but he has shown he is willing to give it up as a matter of praticality.
He backed off after US and Palestinian pressure, but it’s ludricous to say that he wants peace when he tried to kill the roadmap before the text had even been released. The settlemnts there were illegal under even Israeli law, but nearly all the settlers that have been removed have now returned except this time they are actively being protected by the IDF.
What do you mean ‘100%’, demanding an Israeli withdrawal is hardly unfair and Israel has signalled it’s unwillingenss for peace by never offering this.
Its extremely unfair because the Palestinians offer nothing. Any “theft”- and I take exception to your characterization of it as that as the land was taken in a defensive war, is long past. The Palestinians could have gotten it back if they were willing to abandon efforts to kill people. The Egyptions got their land back under the same circumstances.
US pressure, not Palestinian./ Do you really think they can do anything more than attacking Israelis like they are now? And they would have stayed gone if the Palestinians hadn’t opened a new wave of terror attacks. face it: every time their has bee even a smidgeon of hope, its the pathetic Palestinians who erase it.
[quote]
Of course he’s not given it up yrt as there has been no final settlemnet yet, there’s nothing instrincally wrong with dmanding that international law be adhered to and stolen land be returned, but he has shown he is willing to give it up as a matter of praticality.
The Right of Return will never, ever happen, period. Asking for it is pointless. They could have gotten everything he wanted except that, and they know it. Peace is not the goal for Palestinians. Israel will not wipe itself out so the Palestinians can live there again. “Intenational law” is dependant on both sides adhering to it. The Palestinians will not. Israel is under no moral or ethical legal obligation to accomodate murderers and scum.
Cite? You brought it up. The guerrillas had no IDF affiliation, nor was it is any way Sharon’s rsponsibility, and that assumes he even knew what was goin on, which there is no real evidence of.
You chuck rocks at people’s heads, and don’t be surprised when they shoot you. Palestinians tend to die when the IDF responds after they attack soldiers, fire mortars into settlements, sneak into houses to kill Israeli babies, and send suicide bombers. Te Israeli responses are more efficient and aimed at killing the perps. When the bastard Palestinians realize they are being stupid, childish, and deserve death, maybe they will stop. Until then, the ball, as its always been, is is their court.
I’m sorry theft is theft, Israel has confiscated much land off normal Palestinian civilians
Most opf them, wer back where they were before weeks before the ceasefire collapsed, infact I know that 50% of them had already returned about two weeks after they were removed.
As you should well know that the right of return has not been the major sticking point at negoitations but Israeli refusal to completely withdraw
Palestinians ‘desreve death’, that does it: you are a disgraceful racist.
It is depressing.
Arafat is an obstacle. The road map was doomed from the moment it was clear that Arafat would prevent any implementation on the PA side. A good faith effort at disarming the terrorist groups was the only requirement for stage one. Failing at it would have been okay, but some good faith effort. Israel actually was complying in the small incremental steps envisioned but got nothing in return. Arafat prevented it. The man has his feifdom and wants to maintain it. If peace had been achieved history would have judged him the obstacle til now and he wouldn’t have that.
But there is no way to remove him without making things worse. The reality is that no plan will be implented without his okay and exiling him won’t change it. Killing him would villify Israel. Hope for a heart attack?
He certainly didn’t prevent implemantation the struggle was about power, Arafat is autocratic.
Minus the rhetoric here, there is one good point made. What are the Palestinians offering to Israel? Nothing. They’re saying “We want our land back”, forgetting that Israel won that land after being attacked. All that is required for peace in the Middle East is for everyone to do what Egypt did, just accept that Israel is a sovereign country and pledge to respect its borders, and it can all be over.
Israel is under absolutely no obligation to make any kind of deal, and yet they’re dealing. Arafat is unwilling to make any concessions, such as stopping the attacks, because if the Palestinians ever do get their land, he’ll be thrown to the sidelines, and he doesn’t want to lose his “power”.
That’s the truth here. It has nothing to do with “Zionism”, or any of the other BS that gets thrown out in these discussions. Israel, whether you like it or not, is in the right.