I would also dispute that Paul Colford debunked the Atlantic article. He certainly made some counter points, neither side has a ton of evidence that I’ve seen, and the Atlantic writer made a lot of claims I notice Colford didn’t address at all. I also think that there’s probably an element of subjectivity in a newsroom deciding on what will be reported, and two people who live in the same newsroom could probably have different experiences and opinions on why things get approved/rejected for publication.
…you appear to be arguing a strawman. I haven’t claimed that “Israel wanted to specifically kill Gazans.” I’m questioning the premise that “the IDF provides evidence for its claims”.
You don’t think that the international community would frown upon Israel doing this?
So is this part of the “peace in the middle east” that trump delivered?
That won’t happen for another two weeks.
I don’t think Israel has ever set out a policy of wholesale slaughter, as they know in advance what kind of pressure that would put on their international allies to condemn them.
I do think Israel tends to use ‘terrorism’ and ‘self defense’ as a basis for, shall we say, less discriminant bombing knowing in advance the likelihood of collateral damage is high.
Modhat: @chappachula & @HMS_Irruncible
Please dial this down. This is clearly getting personal now. Some calmness over an impossible situation is called for if you wish to continue posting in this thread.
While it might be the case that they gave advance warning before they struck a building that housed journalists working for AP and Al Jazeera, I don’t find it very believable that this is something they do as a general policy. Only when it is specifically useful, since killing member of foreign press agencies is a lot more troublesome then random Palestinians that may not be not any more significant than dolphins to the Israeli powers that be.
Here is an account from someone on the ground, a Palestinian doctor (my emphasis):
And we see they destroy buildings during night while people are sleeping in their homes. There is no alarm, as they claim. They claim that “When we are targeting residential buildings, we are sending alarm to the people.” But this is not the truth. This is not the truth. To be honest all the time, most of the time they are not sending alarms.
It’s interesting that not much has actually been discussed about what provoked Hamas to fire the rockets in the first place. Here is some additional context from a Palestinian doctor in the West Bank:
I won’t defend Hamas’ use of rockets, but Hamas didn’t just emerge from thin air. Hamas is the perfect scapegoat for Israel to continue doing all the BS it continues to do. If Hamas didn’t exist, Israel (and the US) would have to event it.
the Qassam rocket 10 kg warhead represent about 14.5 lbs of TNT surrounded by bearings. If that hits you you’re dead and so is everyone around you. It’s not a glorified firework.
They cost $800 to make. a 2.5 million gallon per day desalination plant costs $32 million or $12.8 million per million gallons per day. That would be 16 thousand missiles.
I’ll leave you to calculate the value of human life into the overall cost advantage of building infrastructure vs building weapons.
No, Hamas didn’t emerge from thin air. It emerged from years of warring against Israel. If they didn’t exist then the Palestinians would be free to grow as a society.
@Magiver It’s quite a lot more complicated than that, as other posters have laid out. It’s better described as a cycle of revenge, which you are happy to keep feeding.
Resolved- that Israel is following a strategy of keeping Gaza and Hamas poor so they can’t afford better weapons. Whatever infrastructure is built, it will be rubble in short order. Hamas’s rocket budget gets more bang for the buck spent on rockets than on anything else.
We still await any proof that the bombing of infrastructure has been justified.
I don’t believe military forces generally provide the sort of evidence you are talking about that “they haven’t committed a war crime.” That isn’t how we determine if a war crime has occurred, you generally would need to have an allegation, investigation, and provide evidence. It isn’t on the military to proactively prove each strike is not a war crime. They release press releases and sometimes high level data, they aren’t going to give you operational stuff until years after the fact, if ever.
Then it’s pretty simple to not operate from civilian locations. the people keeping Palestine poor are the ones using it as a base of operations.
We’re still waiting for any proof that using Palestine as a base of operations has been justified.
…perhaps you meant to address this with @Babale? Because they were the one who asserted “the IDF provides evidence for their claims”. You seem to be agreeing with me that the IDF do not provide evidence for their claims.
You would, for example, agree with the assertion that the IDF has not provided evidence that the building that housed the offices of the AP and Al Jazeera hosted military assets belonging to the military intelligence of the Hamas terror organisation. And you would probably agree that they aren’t going to give us this operational stuff until years after the fact, if ever.
“Electronic warfare” seems a broad term that might just encompass publishing articles that Israel doesn’t like. So I certainly would not give them the benefit of the doubt at this point.
And I would argue no military does this, and it is not evidence of any war crimes.
…I haven’t said anything about war crimes.
And the US certainly spent a lot of time making the (bullshit) case that Iraq had WMD before the 2003 invasion of Iraq. They certainly do do this.
I don’t think you’re saying much of importance at all to be honest. Israel attacks military targets in Gaza, and there’s no evidence otherwise. Gaza is full of war reporters looking to make a name for themselves, if there was clear evidence of Israel just wantonly attacking civilian targets for no reason, it would be everywhere. It’s basically a nothingburger. Saying “well I choose not to believe” is fine, I choose not to care about your opinion on it lol.
…there is no clear evidence the building that housed the AP also hosted military assets belonging to the military intelligence of the Hamas terror organisation and neither the IDF or the Israeli government seems interested in proving that this is the case.
If the IDF are going to claim they have attacked a military target then its over to them to prove they have done so. If they don’t: then why should I believe that they are only attacking military targets? Everything I’ve seen from official channels is propaganda and talking points. It’s the Trump administration on steroids. I have no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Which reporters are these? Can you be specific?
The bombing of the AP building is clear evidence of Israel just wantonly attacking civilian targets for no apparent reason.
Its kinda like in Great Debates, when you challenge someone to provide a cite to back up their assertions and they respond “nah, it’s okay, LOL.” That is exactly what is happening right now. The IDF are saying “nah, LOL.”
Interesting thread with a lot of well-argumented posts. I remember being in a similar discussion on a Dutch forum in 2014, when Israel was bombing Gaza as well. Also in retaliation to rocket launches IIRC, the situation was pretty much the same. What I argued back then, as I will now, is that we see the repeated acting out of collective trauma on both sides. I remember when I was in Israel back in 1995, we drew parallels to South Africa’s Apartheid (to which the South African volunteers in the kibbutz where I was working heartily agreed), and comparing the situation to NI/IRA as well. As long as people have victims to mourn, they will seek revenge. As long as people don’t feel safe, they’ ll try to eliminate perceived threats. There is a very good book I’ve read some time ago by Ha’aretz journalist Nir Baram, called A Land Without Borders. In it, he travels the West Bank and interviews Israeli settlers and Palestinians alike with the question of how are we ever going to solve this. What became rather clear to me is how stuck both sides (really) are in their own narratives. The Palestinians will talk about the Naqba, the Israelis about the Holocaust. Few are able to look beyond that and construct a narrative that provides a way out. And maybe those in power are not inclined to make an effort, because a perceived enemy close at hand helps to keep them in power. Israeli population is by no means homogenous, there’s a lot of ingroup differences, and a tradition of multiparty coalitions which leaves extremists (eg Chas) with a lot of power because they’re needed to form a viable government. Plus, as noted upthread, when rockets are falling or buses blown up (as was custom in the nineties) people tend to get a lot less liberal.
It’s worth noting that Israel proper has a large Arab population as well, whom we almost never hear about because they’re not a problem, they are full citizens of Israel. After the Naqba, a group of Palestinians who were driven away held on to their refugee status, refusing to settle elsewhere because then they would lose their claim. In the seventies, PLO leadership was kicked out of Jordan for stirring up trouble among the Palestinian population there and proceeded to do the same in Lebanon, which paved the way for a very nasty civil war in which Israel was also involved. And continued into a low grade conflict with Hezbollah. At least when I was there katyusha missiles were fired from southern Lebanon on a regular basis.
IMHO the state of Israel was born from war, and from Europeans who wanted to do right by the Jewish people they let down so badly, preferrably by getting them to live somewhere else. The Palestinians were royally fucked over in the process. And the current population still bears the consequences.