The First Terrorists in Palestine: A Timeline

Great Debates
1

In view of the tragic assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte by identited Jewish terrorists on September 17 of this year, the following report has been prepared for the use of Dr. Bunche, Count Bernadotte’s immediate replacement.

This report is a compilation of all identified terrorist attacks on British, American and Arab individuals and entities from the assassination of the British Resident Minister in the Middle East on November 6, 1944 by members of the terrorist Jewish Stern gang to the assassination of Count Bernadotte on September 17, 2948 by members of this same gang of fanatics.

This information is compiled from reports of the US Department of State, the British Foreign Office and various American and British press services. – New York, October 2, 1948.

[[ I have left the introductory paragraphs, but deleted the rest because it was copied verbatim from this site: http://www.doublestandards.org/unbunche.html – CKDH ]]

2

Since this is a debate forum, what would you like to debate? There is nothing to dispute in these facts.

In order to debate, you need to present a debatable proposition of some sort.

3

Debate whether this is terrorism or not. All I have seen here on SDMB so far is that the Palestinian Arabs are terrorists, while the Israeli Jews are “fighting terrorism.”

I want people to question whether or not the Israelis could be considered terrorists, and their country considered a state sponsor of terrorism.

Is it accepted as fact here that Israelis are terrorists, Israel is a criminal, terrorist nation, and Palestinians are simply defending what’s rightfully theirs? I’d like to see someone confirm or deny that.

4

You’ve just registered here, and while I hate to assume, it seems to me you probably haven’t read past threads on the subject, because I would go so far as to say a MAJORITY of people here don’t agree with that. It’s definitely a big chunk. There are lots of smart people here, and few consider the issue to be that simple.

[quote[Is it accepted as fact here that Israelis are terrorists, Israel is a criminal, terrorist nation, and Palestinians are simply defending what’s rightfully theirs? I’d like to see someone confirm or deny that.[/quote]

That would probably be just as simplistic in the opposite direction, so I’d give pretty much the same answer.

5

Article plagiarized from here.

6

Ah, okay. No one will deny that Israel was born in part due to terrorism. But that’s the past. The terrorism was also of a different nature. Israeli terrorism was the much lower grade terrorism that groups like the IRA employ. Mainly assassinations of occupation officials, the occasional “collaborator”, and sabotage. Palestinian terrorism mainly involves random killings of any Jews they can find.

But once again, that’s the past. Israel does not employ terrorism today. From what your timeline shows, Israel pretty much is doing exactly what the British did to control terrorism.

Before we can agree on whether or not the Palestinians are defending what is rightfully theirs, we first need to figure out what you think belongs to them. The Occupied Territories, or all of Israel? And does any part of Jordan or Syria belong to the Palestinians?

I think most Dopers view the conflict as being both sides’ fault. I tend to side more with Israel, other Dopers mileage may vary, but few of us see it as all one side’s fault.

7

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Marley23 *
**You’ve just registered here, and while I hate to assume, it seems to me you probably haven’t read past threads on the subject, because I would go so far as to say a MAJORITY of people here don’t agree with that. It’s definitely a big chunk. There are lots of smart people here, and few consider the issue to be that simple.

You’re right. I just got pretty steamed reading a few posts calling Israeli commandos the “best of the best” and such. Also, I am seeing so-called “christians” who worship Israel like slaves.

However, I stand by the statement that Israel is a criminal, terrorist nation. Until murderers are punished for their crimes in Israel, how else can it be seen?

8

The problem here is that any standard you judge Israel by just makes it worse when the Palestinians are held up to the same standard.

Israel does bring soldiers that mistreat Palestinians to justice. Not nearly as often as they should, but there is at least some effort being made to root out their terrorists. The Palestinians absolutely refuse to even consider doing anything more than asking their own terrorists politely to chill out.

Of course, Arafat has no qualms about using extreme force against individual political opponents. And I’m sure if Hamas called for his death he’d act decisively.

9

If one looks at the timeline, the Israelis are doing the same things today that they did in the past; they just have better equipment now. Home demolitions, assassination, bombings, etc. One can also see that random killing of Arabs was just as much a part of the Zionist policy then as it is now. Far more Arabs are “randomly” killed than Jews.

Frankly, there is no comparison between contemporary Zionist policy and British occupation policing. The British did not attempt to displace any populations, although they made a feeble attempt to halt Jewish illegal immigration.

As for what belongs to the Palestinians, that’s simple: A fair chance. That means give up on expulsion or partition, grant amnesty to all involved, and implement a one-state solution with equal rights for all. Let both peoples figure it out through democratic methods.

10

**If one looks at the timeline, the Israelis are doing the same things today that they did in the past; they just have better equipment now. Home demolitions, assassination, bombings, etc. One can also see that random killing of Arabs was just as much a part of the Zionist policy then as it is now. Far more Arabs are “randomly” killed than Jews.
**

Not by intent, and if you look at the casualty breakdowns, a higher percentage of Jews killed tend to be women and children. Palestinian dead are mostly males of fighting age.

But in both cases, call it what it is: warfare, not always by conventional means. The key is to get it to end, not to judge either side’s tactics. The war crimes trials can come later if that’s what you want.

**Frankly, there is no comparison between contemporary Zionist policy and British occupation policing. The British did not attempt to displace any populations, although they made a feeble attempt to halt Jewish illegal immigration.
**

Pretty much like our own attempts here. The Israelis aren’t displacing very many people. The Palestinians are still in the same places in the West Bank and Gaza that they were before. Most settlements are built on land that was not inhabited by Arabs.

**As for what belongs to the Palestinians, that’s simple: A fair chance. That means give up on expulsion or partition, grant amnesty to all involved, and implement a one-state solution with equal rights for all. Let both peoples figure it out through democratic methods.
**

Not a terrible idea, but not one either side can accept. For Israel, it would mean losing its Jewish identity. For the Arabs, it would mean having to live and get along with a roughly equal number of Jews. Arabs are not known for granting equal rights to non-Arabs, or even to Arabs who happen to practice a different religion. The flight of Palestinian Christians from Bethlehem is testament to this intolerance. While the Arab population within Israel continues to grow, the non-Arab and Christian populations in the PA area continues to shrink. If Israel was doing it, it would be called ethnic cleansing.

11

Plagiarism is when an author takes credit for something he never wrote. I didn’t do that, so don’t use that word.

12

I’d like to pull you back on a couple of things adher, the percentage of very young Israel is and very young Palestinians being killed is the same, though the percentage of Palestinian children being killed is higher, you’d have to take fighting age as 12/13 in order to justify your statement.

Secondly Bethelhem is a majority Christian Arab town and has been for some time, there has been a drop in the number of Christians in the West Bank and Gaza over the past few years, but the main factor in this is the Israeli occupation as in general Christian Arabs and Muslim Arabs in Palestine have a good relationship, though there has been tensions between Islamic fundamentalists (as in groups such as Islamic Jihad) and Christians in the area.

Also Israel has internally displaced thousands of Palestinians within the west Bank and Gaza.
Anti-Zionist: it may not be plagiarism, but it is an infringment of copyright to quote large sections of an article on a message board.

13

This is an open-source document. Hence, there is no copyright, and it can be freely reproduced without legal repercussions. The only problem with it is that it was scanned, and therefore not perfect.

14

It’s a breach of SDMB rules to post articles word for word.

15

<< Anti-Zionist: it may not be plagiarism, but it is an infringment of copyright to quote large sections of an article on a message board >>

What MC said is correct. The Straight Dope does not permit wholesale copying, and we do our best to administer the fair usage copyright rules very strictly. I have therefore deleted the lengthy list of activities from 1946 - 1948 from the OP, which were taken verbatim from the website, and I have put a link in its place.

Please, do NOT cut and paste entire articles. Provide a link instead.

16

**I’d like to pull you back on a couple of things adher, the percentage of very young Israel is and very young Palestinians being killed is the same, though the percentage of Palestinian children being killed is higher, you’d have to take fighting age as 12/13 in order to justify your statement.
**

Actual numbers, yes, percentages no. I put fighting age at 16 or above.

**Secondly Bethelhem is a majority Christian Arab town and has been for some time, **

WAS a majority Christian town. Not anymore.

http://www.take-a-pen.org/english/Articles/ChristianCommunities2.html

**Also Israel has internally displaced thousands of Palestinians within the west Bank and Gaza.
**

A very small percentage, and strictly for security reasons, not to move Jews onto their lands.

17

a) No, percentages (the actually difference is about in very young deaths as pecenrages works out as 1 part in 10 which is not statiscally signifcant), if you start including 13 years and over then more Palestinian children have been killed.

http://www.btselem.org/

b) That article is about a change in Bethlehem’s muncipal boudary (it is also celarly written for propaganda purposes rather than trying to detial the real problems of the Christian population in the area) I can tell you that Bethelehm proper is still majority Christian.

c) Quite a large percentage actually as the areas that Palestinians are allowed to live in makes the West Bank and Gaza some of the most densly populated areas in the world.

18

Honestly, I didn’t even know about the site that contained this text, but thanks for posting the link (I didn’t even know one existed). The list was actually obtained from SF indymedia, according to a link on this site.

Want proof that I didn’t know about this site?

Here it is:

This is the last, incomplete paragraph from the website:

January 26, 1948, Palestine. Mrs. Golda Meyerson, Jewish Agency political director in Jerusalem, and Moshe Shertok, chief of all Agency political operations, told the UN Palestine Commission that Jews must arm against possible Arab threats and Shertok demanded a UN policy th … [Document ends here]

This is the complete paragraph, plus two more:

January 26, 1948, Palestine. Mrs. Golda Meyerson, Jewish Agency political director in Jerusalem, and Moshe Shertok, chief of all Agency political operations, told the UN Palestine Commission that Jews must arm against possible Arab threats and Shertok demanded a UN policy that would compel the U.S. to lift its embargo on arms destined for Jewish groups in the Middle East.

January 28, 1948, Jerusalem. Rabbi Hillel Silver, chief of the Jewish Agency’s American division, cut short a trip to Jerusalem to return to the US. and campaign for American public support of armed Jewish backing for partition and eventual Zionist control of all Palestine. On January 27, his agency called upon 15,000 young men and women to join Haganah by February 15. British intelligence reports indicate that Haganah had grown from 3,500 to 12,000 full-time members since December 1.

January 31,1948, London. British Foreign Office officials revealed that over 1,000 Soviets, all Russian-speaking Communist military technicians, had been intercepted on the immigrant ships “Pan York” and “Pan Crescent.”

19

To your debate: the question is, how do we distinguish “terrorism” from “guerilla warfare”?

I suggest that the answer is two-fold. To be guerilla warfare rather than terrorism:
(1) The objective of guerilla warfare must be a political military objective; and
(2) there must be strong connection between the means and the ends. If there is a strong and clear link between the act and the political objective, then it’s guerilla warfare. If the link is dubious or tenuous or non-existent at best, then it’s terrorism.

Example 1: (1776 US) If you want to kick the British out of your country, and you hide behind trees and rocks to shoot at their bright red uniforms as they march in file, that’s guerilla warfare. The goal is political/military and the act is directed at the British military.

Example 2: (1944 France) If you want to kick the Nazi Germans out of your country, and you organize resistance to liberate France, that attacks German soldiers and military personnel, that’s guerilla warfare.

Example 3: (1946 -48 pre-Israel) If you want to kick the British army out of your country, and you target British military personnel, that’s guerilla warfare. There is a clear link between the the goal and the act.

Example 4: (2001 US) If you want to kick the Israeli army out of Palestine, and you target the New York World Trade Center, that’s terrorism. There is no link between the act and the goal.

Example 5: (ongoing, Israel) If you want to kill all the Jews, and you blow up civilians in Tel Aviv, then you might argue that there is strong relationship between means and ends. However, (a) your objective is not political or military but simple racism and (b) your target was everyone who was on the bus, Jews and non-Jews, Israelis and tourists, and even occasionally Palestinians working in Israel.

I find this to be a useful working definition. Now, please note that the other side will almost always deplore the action as terrorism. The British in 1776 and the Germans in 1944 (Examples 1 and 2) viewed the American rebels and the Free French as terrorists. Similarly the list cited in the OP, of Jewish activities in 1946 - 48, were viewed as “terrorist” by the British and Arab governments. Hey, Saddam Hussein thinks that the US is engaged in terrorist activities in Iraq.

However, my definitions allow (I think) a more objective perspective.

20

This group is directly concerned with the rights of Palestinian Christians, and as you can see that part of the reason for the demographic shift is the building of refugee camps to house internally displaced Palestinian Muslims.