Example 4 is misleading, whether deliberately so or not; the Palestinians had nothing to do with the WTC attack. That was Al Qaeda. Not one of the hijackers was a Palestinian.
That being the case, should I simply take your word for it on the other examples?
Reading comprehension 101: What C K Dexter Haven wrote was:
Doesn’t say it was the work of Palestinians, just that the purported goal was, at least in part, removal of Israel from what Al Qayda call “Palestine”.
As to your suggestions earlier on of removing all the Jews from Israel - give me one good reason why I should be exiled from my home in the past (and only) 40 years of my life? Even if we think about it your way - other ethnic groups have been displaced before, why are the Jews (from 2000 years ago) special - then I equally question why the Palestinians (from 50 years ago) are more special than us.
Either previous ownership means something - and then we were there first. Or it doesn’t - Might makes Right - and we are there now… Either way I don’t see how I am not entitled to stay here as long as I can hold out.
Dani
You can stay, but I think a majority of Palestinians would be happy if they were allowed to come back too, but the right of return only availible to Jewish people.
With a user name like that, I think Anti-Zionist is going to turn out to be a one trick pony and we are seeing it.
Well, the response to your point is a two state solution - which is probably what we will end up with, like it or not. However, in the immortal words of Henry Kisinger, “The palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity”. The wave of terrorism they started as a response to Baraq’s final position at Camp David has caused untold grief on both sides… while only taking them further away from their goal of independence.
Makes you stop and think what it is that Arafat REALLY wants. I’m not sure that it’s the happiness of his people that drives him… but that’s a different story.
Dani
I never suggested removing Jews from Israel. Those are your words, not mine. What I did suggest was a one-state solution, meaning that the Jews would have to treat the Palestinians as equals in a state encompassing all of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. Jews are capable of treating others as equals, aren’t they?
So you are implying that what CK Dexter Haven is actually suggesting is that America was attacked because it supports Israel, but that there is no political military objective in doing so? That makes almost as little sense as saying the Palestinians (or Saddam Hussein) did it.
Heres CK’s definition of “guerilla” warfare again, just for clarification:
Gee, do ya think so? 
Anti-Z, did you address me, when you mentioned the Israel slave-worshipper? If yes, then, yes, I am a slave for Israel. Actually I am one of them. I invite you to go to my posts in the thread “When the best of the best…etc.” in this forum and aquire a bit deeper background in the q at hand. It will suit you well, being very informative, I, w all modesty, dare say.
Anyway, the Is-Pal conflict is not that sharply cut, as to propose the propositions you put on the table. If you be so kind to read the rather a tiny bit long post below, I’ll be grateful. We’ll have a common ground to debate on.
Here it goes…
Beside the fact that, in historical criterions, we were there first, we never gave up on that ancestral homeland of ours after being exiled from there, we never ceased to take oath by it (just to make the pt, in the daily morning prayer Jews utter so: “If I forget thee, Jerusalem, may my right be forgotten”; the prayers went on daily, for 2k yrs, no less, in every place we were exiled to), so there can be no one able to say “I didn’t know it”, we never stopped coming to Israel, even if in small no’s only and even if only to be burried there, as a sacred duty (performed by many rabbies and others), we are there now, an extremely successful society, w no match in the region in any domain you care to mention, and we intend to stay there forever.
Now, to make things worse for you, as a proponent of labelling the Isr’s terrorists, about half of what is known as Palestinians, came to the place known as Isr now, in the last decade of the 19th cent, as a direct result of the developing economy there, to find work and bread. Same w many Bedouin tribes which came from as far as Iraq and as near as Jordan. They still beg us to give them work, now, in spite of their atrocities done to us and sanctioned by Arafat, their leader, and we still give it to them, willingly, believe me, though we could use only the huge no of foreign workers we have there.
To complicate the mater, but w no less conviction and rightfulness (and I do not wish to make a political profit, here, if one may think so), the Jews were unwanted in every part of Europe, all those 2k yrs, so much so, that something as triffle and trivial as the Holocaust, was applied to them by the Germans and their collaborators, in the mid 20th cent, bringing to the slaughter of cr. 7.000.000 men, wome and children.
Anticipating this calamitous disaster, but unable to prevent it, in in end of the 19th cent, some emancipated Jews, called later Zionists, took, their fate in their hands and decided that, as the ancestral homeland of ours, from a few proposed territories, Israel would be elected as our RENEWED home.
You understand and you said as much, that we, the Jews there, don’t have where to go. If you add to this the above info, you further understand that the Palestinians, at least partially, if not fully, don’t have the full right to claim “This is mine”, pointing to Israel. They knew what they were doing when they came and took another’s property, no matter for how long it was deserted.
I and many w me, are of the oppinion that we, the Isr’s there, are the most restrained society when compared to others facing internal insurgency and terror of the utmost barbarism and bestiality, and I can not exagerate one little bit here. You are invited to ask me to detail, if you so wish. There’s no way to compare the behaviour of theirs and ours.
Following this little ambitious dissertation, I leave it to you to decide if we, the Israelis, are to be called terrorists and if the Palestinians are who they pretend to be.
May I add a little bit of info, as for who the Palestinians are, and remind you, that, as they danced w joy on their roofs, chanting happily, when Israel was shelled by the Iraqi missiles in the '91 Gulf War, so they danced and chanted in the streets of Brooklyn IMMEDIATELY after 9/11 and gave candies to each other. This was videotaped and broadcasted.
I think Crocodile Dundee summed up the madness of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict best when he described it as being like two fleas who are prepared to fight to the death over who “owns” the dog they’re living on…
One could easily start one’s timeline with the rejection by Palestinians and Arab nations of the U.N. declaration giving statehood to both Jews and Palestinians, and the multi-nation Arab attempt to destroy the new state of Israel.
But of course, the region’s history and the relationship between Jews and Arab Palestinians begins well before 1948 (or 1944).
The pleasures of finger-pointing aside, both sides are there, they’re not going anywhere and solutions will have to take the legitimate aims of both into account.
The issuance of one-sided bile-filled denunciations of either party and their characterization as criminal/murderous/subhuman etc. is highly correlated with both wilful ignorance of history and bigotry.
It’s a hindrance to useful debate.
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. . . someone tell him we’ve done this a hundred times, already . . . . wake me up after someone’s told him about the DNA / common heritage thing between Jews and Palestinians . . . you walked out of Africa as one tribe, dude . . .
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At this point in history (and by that I mean the last century or so) it would be highly immoral and illegal to displace a native population and settle in regardless of an ancient claim on the land, especially one based on a document that has one cannot belief is the original unchanged in the millenia after its writing.
If other ethnic groups have been displaced before, is this settling any more justified? Shouldn’t we attempt to correct history where we have the ability to? I’m not saying Israel should be dissolved and the Palestinians given full control of the region, but Israeli immigrant settlers should not be able to go into Palestininan territories, uproot them from their homes, and settle in. This has been happening since the foundation of Israel, and is as bad as if a bunch of Native Americans came, kicked me out of my house, and took back Manhattan. At the very least, reparations should be made to the uprooted Palestinians, the newer settlements rescinded, and equal rights distributed.
Hm, I wonder what Solomon would’ve said if both women chose half a baby over a whole.
London?! London? Awake? Listen to what I say to “pothead”: the Native Americans may one day just as well do it. It will be a rude awakening for you, London and pothead, if you don’t “wake up” sooner.
All of you, so basically ignorant of the basic subject matter, try to apply irrelevant ideas and solutions to a place about which you know nothing, just nothing. Hiding behind the vague statement of “right should be made” doesn’t have the least legitimacy to propel it in the real world.
All I know is that the most persecuted, discriminated and attacked, physicaly, mentally and spiritually, races and societies in history, the Jews and the Blacks, are, rightfully so, claiming their past, abstract and concrete. Spiritual and physical properties, compensations and apologies, are given back to them. The Blacks in America, the Jews in Israel and worldwide. Maybe someone decided it’s time to admit wrongs were done and it’s time to make up for it.
I’ll kiss a pig, Pothead, if your reasoning makes sense to the president of sense – Little John de Conqueroo. If native americans came and kicked you out of your house would you be agreeable to …
(a) recieving reperations or…
(b) keeping your home and paying reparationsto the offended people, or…
© moving you out of your own home and then have the person who ordered you to give your pungent reperations for the unscroupulous conduct of living your own life.
I’d like to echo CK’s comments, and actually express surprise that there aren’t more examples of early Jewish terrorism in that linked list.
No doubt the Stern gang (Lekhi) were a bunch of thugs. Heck they even held up a Jewish bank and killed two Jewish employees. Terrorists, no doubt about it. The ends justified any means even though the connection was often dubious at best and nonpolitical and nonmilitary often as well.
Irgun, on the other hand, fought a guerilla war in the main. It is notable how few of that list report significant civilian casulaties. British soldiers and installations were the targets. Even the King David Hotel bombing was a military target; it was the regional headquarters for the British army.
But most significant is that Israel quickly took on its terroristic factions. The Haganah confronted both Lekhi and the Irgun on many occassions. Ben-Gurion even urged Jews to turn members of the Irgun into British authorities. There was an effort from the earliest days to reign the terror elements in. No doubt there were still episodes of quid pro quo violence and implied threats of violence going on by both sides in those days and each side had good reason to fear the other. In 1929 67 Jews were murdered in Hebron, another 60 wounded and Jews were driven from the city. While open to some debate, most believe that Jewish forces murdered at least as many at Dier Yassin in 1948. Meanwhile Arab leaders were exhorting that “This will be a war of extermination!” and for Arabs to “Murder the Jews! Murder them all!” Nope, not a pretty time.
But what if the Palestinians had an Arab Ben-Gurion today? What if they had someone with the courage to take on the terrorists among them and to at least try to reign them in? What if the only targets were military targets in the West Bank? I’d think we’d be looking at a differnet situation on the ground and one much more favorable to achieving Palestinian statehood.
The beauty and the truth is in the eyes of the beholder… (DSeid)
This would be even more effective if you were to light your candle of knowledge rather than only rail against the darkness of ignorance. Noting ignorance is merely the first step. When there’re those who’re “so basically ignorant of the basic subject matter” and who “know nothing, just nothing,” one should provide whatever appropriate knowledge one has to share. The transmission of information is esssential to alleviating ignorance.
The presentation of this information, could reveal what renders the various ideas and solutions irrelevant.
Just a thought. Maybe it’d help, maybe it wouldn’t.
Simon, wold I be right in stating that I gave quite a lot of info? Or is it that what I consider (useful) info, is irrelevant? Don’t think so. Pls, read more carefully my last posts. Thank you,
" . . . Even if we think about it your way - other ethnic groups have been displaced before, why are the Jews (from 2000 years ago) special - then I equally question why the Palestinians (from 50 years ago) are more special than us.
Either previous ownership means something - and then we were there first. Or it doesn’t - Might makes Right - and we are there now… Either way I don’t see how I am not entitled to stay here as long as I can hold out."
Timeline seems to be the definition of the debate, so:
When that Moses guy led the Israelites out of Egypt, way back when, he was leading them on a search for the promised land. It turned out that the land he decided had been promised by Abraham was already occupied by the Canaanites (Palestinians) who had built a rather nice civilization. It was easy to find, since the Canaanites had hosted the nomadic Israelites for a few years before they pulled up stakes and wandered into Egypt and were enslaved. Upon escaping Egypt and deciding that Canaan was promised to them, the Israelites fell upon the Canaanites and slaughtered them, man, woman, and child. Some historical estimates are that a million souls were massacred. So, in a technical, timeline sense, the Israelites actually were there two thousand years ago. But, c’mon, let’s don’t pretend that the Palestinians suddenly arose from noplace fifty years ago just to be a pain in the ass. It might have taken them awhile to regroup after having been nearly wiped out the first time, but this beef is thousands of years old.
So “either previous ownership means something,” in which case the Palestinians were there first by a long shot, “or it doesn’t,” in which case the ability to slaughter most of a civilization while claiming persecution and the divine right granted by Abraham makes right. History won’t solve this one, but neither will denying history. Don’t pick out only the parts you like and call them all the facts that need to be known – that sort of thing trivializes your own arguments. There are plenty of valid arguments for both sides, and the sooner both sides can get their self-righteous asses off their own shoulders the sooner some kind of decent compromise can be reached.
Gairloch
Oh, I forgot to mention – the few Canaanites that were left alive by the soldiers of Moses were taken into slavery. Some people might not like that kind of thing.
Gairloch