Do all of the various Palestinian terrorist groups who send out bombers actually think they’ll make Israel go away? Or that they’ll cause the creation of a Palestinian State? Don’t they ever realize that just when it seems Possible for the creation of such a state, a bombing happens, and that possibility flies out the window? And don’t they realize that no matter how much they bomb, that Israel will always be there?
What, you’re asking us to report on what Hamas is thinking? How the heck should WE know?
Sheesh, I’ll take a whack at it.
<< warms up Magic 8-Ball >>
Do all of the various Palestinian terrorist groups who send out bombers actually think they’ll make Israel go away? Yes.
Do all of the various Palestinian terrorist groups who send out bombers actually think that they’ll cause the creation of a Palestinian State? Yes.
Don’t they ever realize that just when it seems Possible for the creation of such a state, a bombing happens, and that possibility flies out the window? No.
And don’t they realize that no matter how much they bomb, that Israel will always be there? Ask again later.
It is apparent that Palestinian suicide bombers are driven by an extreme desperation. They feel they have nothing to lose. They have been dispossessed off of their ancestral homelands and forced to live under a brutal military occupation for 35 years running. The brutality inflicted is simply awesome. Recently I read some reports of veterans of the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa visiting Palestine to join the Palestinian movement. From what they say, the Israeli occupation is worse, in many respects, than the South African racist regime. For example, they point out that even in the worst days of South African apartheid, collective punishment was unknown. If a South African black committed an act of terrorism against the racist regime, the South African government did not go into black neighborhoods with tanks and kill everyone in the vicinity, bulldoze down houses and institute harsh repressive measures against the population as a whole. Yet this is the common response of the Israelis to any attack on Israel.
Israel’s policies flagrantly violate every precept of international law, including the Geneva Convention. It is simply intolerable.
Does this justify terrorism? I don’t think so. But, leading Israelis do. Terrorism was used extensively by the Zionists before Israel achieved independence. Former head of state Yitzhak Shamir is quote as saying
You can imagine the reaction a similar statement from Arafat would receive.
The fact is that terrorism has been very effective in history. It was instrumental in the founding of Israel itself. I don’t know if Palestinian suicide bombers think so much about what they hope to achieve with their attacks, apart from lashing out at their oppressors. But, to the extent they do have a political motive, it is to make the price of the occupation higher than the benefit.
Of course, you could also ask whether the Israelis really think that their brutal suppression of the Palestinian people will prevent further acts of Palestinian terrorism.
Uhm, the Israelis don’t target innocent civilians like the Palestinians do. And as for their “brutal suppression”, oh please. The leaders of the radical Palestinian groups, such as Hammas, don’t want peace. They don’t want a Palestinian state existing side by side with a Jewish State. They want all the land and they want to drive the Jews into the sea. Every time a peace settlement looks like it might be a reality, it’s the Palestinians who break a cease fire, or do a bombing, or anything else that stalls peace talks. The only way the Israelis will even think of giving the Palestinians what they want, is when the bombings and other such terrorist activities stop. Hamas and other groups like the al aqsa know this, and don’t want peace. The average Palestinian and Israeli do want peace of course, but it bombings and the like prevent that from happening. Also, Israeli action is always a result of Palestinian action. The Palestinians kill the innocent, and the Israelis respond by targeting Palestinian military members or members of the radical groups. They don’t bomb malls, or dance halls, or any other non military targets.
Nut jobs on both sides. The ringleaders of the Suicide bomber groups prey on young impressionable kids, tell them they are dying for freedom and will be rewarded with virgins. The kids are usually poor and have little to look forward to. If the Suicide bombers were brave, they would be sending their own sons. They are disgusting cowards. But i fail to see how the actions of a few should prevent the whole from getting their own country.
Actually, many more Palestinian civilians have been killed than Israelis. And, it is very lovely how you dismiss the brutal oppression of the Palestinians with “oh please.” The extreme racism implicit in that statement is really quite amazing. Perhaps if you were living in the least free region on Earth, where you had to pass through humiliating checkpoints to get to work, where you had to live in constant fear of your house being bulldozed down, and where every human right has been systematically stripped from you, you would not be so quick to dismiss Israeli oppression with “oh please.”
Much of the same sort of anti-Arab racist rhetoric you parrot was used against blacks fighting for justice in South Africa. You will recall, for example, that the ANC was designated a terrorist organization by the U.S. for many years. Dick Cheney voted against a resolution calling on South Africa to release Mandela, and Reagan vetoed a bill in 1986 that would have placed sanctions on the racist regime.
There are many parralels between South African apartheid and Israel’s apartheid. In both cases, the racist ruling regime justifies its continuing oppression by demonizing the opposition, by labelling them as “terrorists” and by destroying all moderate opposition in favor of extremists who make for better propaganda. In both cases, the charge of terrorism was correct: terrorism has been a part of every national independence movement in history, including Israel’s and the United States’. Doesn’t mean that it is justified, but it also doesn’t justify continuing oppression.
As for the Israelis offering peace, you are completely wrong, in every respect. The is no conflict in the world with a more clear-cut and well-thought-out solution. This solution has been on the table for decades, and has consistently been rejected by the U.S./Israeli alliance. This solution is the obvious one of Israeli withdrawal from the illegally occupied territories, the creation of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and security guarantees for all states in the region. This is the obvious, clear path to peace. It has been on the table for decades, and has been blocked consistently by the U.S./Israel. In fact, they won’t even allow the discussion of Israeli withdrawal to take place, and, indeed, continue to build new settlements in flagrant violation of the Geneva Convention. The U.S./Israeli alliance stands alone in the world in opposing this solution.
DOWN WITH ISRAELI APARTHEID!
END THE OCCUPATION!
Refresh my memory, because it is obviously lacking.
Who was it that rejected the Camp David accords?
-Arafat, I believe.
Who rejected the UN Resolution calling for the Partition of Palestine?
-The Arab League.
The Israeli Occupation may be brutal, but so is suicide bombing. Both sides must shoulder some of the blame for the current impasse.
To say that the US/Israel alliance is the only party that blocks the path to peace is an outright untruth.
Assuming the Israelis actually have a right to be there in the first place…
It is interesting how Camp David is held out as a magnanimous offer. With this offer, Israel proposed to rise to the level of the worst days of the South African apartheid regime. You will recall that in the 1950’s, South Africa set up the Bantustans, sort of semi-autonomous regions where blacks could pretend like they had self-rule. This was considered something to be overcome in the South African case, but in the Israeli case, it is considered to be the solution.
The Israeli “offer” was an offer to create Palestinian Bantustans within the occupied territories, with very limited autonomy (Palestinians are not allowed to drill water wells or pick olives on their own land), and criss-crossed with highways connecting Israeli settlements. It was a slap in the face of the Palestinians, an attempt to assert total control over the parts of the West Bank that Israel valued, and to herd the Palestinians into these impoverished little Bantustans. This “offer” couldn’t possibly be accepted by any Palestinian who hoped to retain a shred of credibility.
You mean 1947? The granting of 55% of traditional Palestine in 1947, and the further annexation of a further 23% in 1948 has long ago been conceded by the Palestinians and surrounding Arab states. It is the remaining 22%–the occupied territories–that is in dispute.
What is wrong with these statements?
“The Nazi occupation of France may be brutal, but so is the French resistance. Both sides must shoulder some of the blame for the current impasse.”
“The South African apartheid regime may be brutal, but so is the African National Congress. Both sides must shoulder some of the blame for the current impasse.”
Nobody is arguing that suicide bombings of civilian targets are legitimate. (At least, I have never met anyone who does.) This is beside the point, though. The only obstacle to a peaceful settlement is the U.S./Israel. Palestinians are not preventing Israel from withdrawing. Israel could withdraw tomorrow if it wished, and go a long way toward achieving a just peace. Likewise, a simple nod from the master in Washington could achieve the same thing. There is simply no justification for Israel’s continuing occupation. It is illegal and immoral, and it must end.
All right Chumpsky, first of all, as for
First of all, I’m not racist. And as for the “oh please”, I’ll expand. The things like checkpoints and so on, are a result of the Israelis trying to crack down on terrorism. Now, seeing how most of the time there’s at least one bombing a week, or even a day, it may not seem to be working. But I wonder, with the checkpoints, and other measures, I wonder how many more bombings would occur.
Second, you say
So tell me then, how come every time Israel has fallen for the “land for peace” deal, the terrorist attacks still happen?
I’ll tell you why. They don’t want to end the occupation, they want to end Israel.
Dont forget that all the brutal occupation and collective punishment stuff someone mentioned earlier in the thread did not exist for all 35 years, but only when the Palestinians started to attack civilians and soldiers.
There was occupation, yes, but hundreds of thousands of Palestinians worked in Israel every day, there was free movement inside the territories and their living conditions were much much better than under the PLO rule and especially today.
Chumpsky, are you seriously making the argument that a just and lasting peace can be achieved without a stop in terrorist suicide bombings, and that groups like Hamas (who don’t recognize Israel) are irrelevant to a just and lasting peace?
Apparently so.
Again, I agree with you that the actions of a few radical suicide bombers does not completely justify the occupation. I likewise contend, however, that an occupation does not justify wanton killing of civilians in another state.
So, you see, if the bombings would stop, it would be a step to peace, just as if Israel stopped some of its procedures, it would be a step to peace.
Surely, you must believe that some of the blame for the violence must lay with the terrorists?
There have been numerous long stretches of time during which there were no Palestinian attacks on Israelis, and the Israelis continued to build settlements in the occupied territories. If Israel was at all serious about negotiating a peaceful settlement, they would stop violating the Geneva Convention by building more settlements.
It’s simply not true. No matter what the Palestinians have done, Israel has continued to expand the settlements.
Also, it is unfortunately the case, at least historically, that oppression does not end without the oppressed fighting back with violence. I don’t condone Palestinian terrorism, in fact I think the Palestinian movement is one of the most inept and corrupt of any Third World independence movements. Hopefully that will change. Of course, killings of civilians in Israel proper should be condemned. It is a different story with the settlers.
It is true by definition, since terrorism is violence. However, Palestinian terrorism is to blame for the situation in the same sense that French Resistance terrorism was responsible for the German occupation of France, or in the same sense that ANC violence was responsible for the violence in apartheid South Africa.
This is not a conflict that Americans can be neutral in. Since we pay for the occupation, remaining neutral is equivalent to supporting the occupation. Merely threatening Israel with a withdrawal of U.S. support would be enough to force Israel to withdraw. Thus, we bear just as much responsibility as the Israelis. We have to decide which side we are on, the side of the oppressed or the oppressor. Those who take a “both sides are at fault” approach side with the oppressor for not recognizing the great injustice that has been done. It ignores the root of the problem, which is Israel’s illegal conquests and brutal occupation.
There are very many things I would like to change about the Palestinian movement. Their leadership has been particularly inept and corrupt, and they have missed a long string of opportunities. This does not mean, however, that I don’t support the cause of Palestinian rights.
Uhm, doesn’t the land that Israel have, outside of what was set aside for them by the UN when it was created, won through wars? Wars started by other Arab countries? Oh and by the way, didn’t some of those Arab counties take some Palestinian land themselves after those wars? Last time I checked, winning land through war isn’t an “illegal conquest” and no other country I can think of (anybody reading who knows differently, please correct me if I’m wrong) is required to return land once they win it.
And as for the “brutal occupation.” Oh, how do I keep from sounding like a broken record?
Let me put it to you this way. Do you honestly think that if, today, Israel pulled out all its forces, and plans went into effect to start an independent Palestinian state, that the bombings would stop?
The current Palestinian leaders don’t recognize Israel (it’s not on Palestinian maps) and teach hatred of Israel through their schools and masque. Bombers come over and target innocent civilians. If you give them their own nation now, then, instead of having some radicals constantly attacking Israel, you’ll have a nation attacking Israel. Israelis, and rightly so, don’t want to give a nation to a people run by terrorists. Once the more moderate Plantains rise up, say, enough’s enough, and stop supporting Hamas and other such groups, when they stop encouraging their kids to strap bombs on themselves, and there is a LONG cease fire, then, and only then, will Israel feel secure enough to withdraw completely.
No.
Perhaps you are not familiar with the Geneva Convention or the U.N. charter. Familiarize yourself.
Yes.
Only under the racist assumptions I mentioned above.
Ditto.
No, Chumpsky, a unilateral pullout will not stop the suicide bombings. Here’s my line of thought as to why:
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As long as Hamas (a terrorist group) is not satisfied, it will continue to murder innocent Israelis.
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Hamas has stated repeatedly that it doesn’t believe Israel has a right to exist.
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Therefore, Hamas will only be satisfied when Israel ceases to exist.
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Therefore, Hamas will continue to murder Israeli civilians as long as both it and Israel exist.
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Therefore, there will not be peace until: either Israel is destroyed, or Hamas is destroyed.
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Israel will continue to exist, assuming a pullout of the occupied territories.
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Because the Palestinian Authority is either unwilling or incapable of destroying Hamas, and if Israel pulls out entirely, it will be incapable of destroying Hamas, Hamas will survive as well.
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Neither of the two conditions of number 5 are met, because of 6 and 7.
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Therefore, there will not be a cessation to suicide bombing should Israel unilaterally pull out of the occupied territories.
As an aside, I really think that there needs to be a change in leadership in the Palestinian Authority to a leadership that has the ability and the inclination to get rid of the terrorists that are a scourge on the possibility of a future Palestinian state.
Chumpsky, I love how anybody who speaks out against the Palestinians is racist. Nice way to silence the opposition, name calling that is.
So I guess that during the cold war, we were racist against the Russians? And during W.W.II, we were racist against the Germans?
I never said I thought that ALL Palestinians hate Israel. I’m keeping my comments focused on the radicals.
That depends on which elements of Hamas you are talking about. No doubt, though, there are a number of Hamas members who are fanatical.
Yep.
Here is where I disagree. If Israel were to pull out of the occupied territories, and act in good faith in seeking a just peace, support for Hamas would quickly dry up. In other words, drain the swamp and there will be no more mosquitos.
Hamas attracts people who have been driven into desparation. They have been systematically stripped of their land, their culture and all of their human rights. It is this situation that must end before there can be peace.
Simply saying, “you stop now, while we continue to oppress you and disenfranchise you” is never going to work. There will be no peace as long as Israel continues the occupation. The international consensus on a peaceful settlement, involving withdrawal and a creation of a Palestinian state would go a long, long way toward peace. That is not to say that Hamas and Likud will be drinking beers together tomorrow, but over time, as Israel demonstrates that it really wants peace, hatred toward Israel will vanish.
Perhaps there will always be a few fanatics who want to kill all Jews and “drive them into the sea.” But why give them all the more reason to harbor this hatred? Why not seek peace and justice, dry up the swamp?
As Americans, we hold the leash on our military base Israel. We could very quickly end the occupation with a withdrawal of support. We could end it tomorrow if we wished. Our continuing support is collusion is a monstrous crime.
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The Palestinian Authority cannot comply with Israeli demands to crack down on suicide bombers, because every time there is a suicide bombing the Israelis bomb the Palestinian police.
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If the Israelis pulled out unilaterally, there would be some breathing space, at least, for Palestinian institutions to operate.
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Hi, Guinastasia!
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If the Israelis pulled out unilaterally, it would give Israel a tremendous propaganda advantage, and the whole world would be watching the Palestinian response.
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Under pressure for results, the Palestinan government would certainly take a harder line towards truce-breakers.
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If the international community helped the new Palestinian state to develop its infrastructure and economy and democratic institutions, the Palestinian people would no longer live in such miserable conditions, and the motivation to carry out suicide bombings would just fade away, and the pool of desperate young recruits would dry up, no matter what Hamas said.