Israel vs Hezbollah...who won?

I think he meant Hezbollah’s attack was unprovoked (which I guess means he’s either unaware of the events on May 28, or believes, like I do, that something fishy was going on with the discovery of the "spy ring)

But don’t worry, that bit may not be equine feces, but I have an idea what might be…

Interesting pantom, let’s see what pantom has to say about that.

[

](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7597863&postcount=57)

Fascinating debate.

I wonder what pantom will say about pantom’s claims that one could have saved Lebanon’s wider populace by “going after” Hezbollah? What will pantom say about pantom’s contention that saying Israel should go after Hezbollah was a stupid argument?

Will pantom take pantom to task for “stupidly arguing” that the correct course of action was to “go after” Hezbollah, since evidently pantom believes that it was an impossiblity? Why does pantom believe that pantom suggested something that he believes to be false? Why does pantom think that pantom argued a position which he didn’t agree with?

Hmmmm…

And all the unprovoked Hezbollah attacks between now and six years ago, including those on May 28, which would be just a few days before July 12… what impact did those have on forcing that 75% of Lebanon to take action? Or the attacks and kidnappings in october of 2000 that led to Israeli overflights resuming? Or any other times that Hezbollah broke ceasfires or periods of calm?

Was Lebanon requesting UN reinforcements on May 29th?

Or did the government of Lebanon, perhaps, claim to have broken an “Israeli spy ring”, ‘validating’ Hezbollah claim to justified attacks on Israel? Hezbollah’s opposition claimed the entire ‘spy ring’ was manufactured and invented by Hezbollah, obtained via a government known to use torture, and that it strains belief to say that in two weeks they caught a dangerous ring of spies, who had documents directly linking them to Mosad, those careless spies who use business cards or some such, (:dubious: ) but that the ‘proof’ was never released and that Rafik Hariri’s killers have never been found? And that Hussein Khattab, a Palestinian and a member of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine -General Command was also one of these “spies”?

Lebanon did nothing at all substantive all those other times when Hezbollah attacked with provocation, and may indeed have helped Hezbollah fabricate justification after the May 28th attacks. In addition, elements in the Lebanese government and Defense Ministry have continued support for Hezbollah and helped get weapons to them ever after Hezbollah had continued to break ceasefires and periods of calm… but this time, pantom assures us, it would’ve been different.

Pantom also ignores that much of the animosity towards Hezbollah at the start of the war was not for the simple act of attacking Israel, but because they had called down reprisals on them, and those they sheltered among/the infrastructure which allowed weapons to be trucked in to theml, in the process.

Will we see, next week, pantom arguing that people have “stupidly argued” that Hezbollah would have been dealt with by the rest of Lebanon if only Israel hadn’t responded?

I wait with bated breath.

Irrelevant, since the attacks and the response were so disproportionate. If a Mexico-based gang kills a few Americans ( I’m sure some do ), should America level a good chunk of Mexico ? Killing your enemies is one thing; making them stronger and killing plenty of innocents in the process is another.

Besides, it’s the cease fire not the Israeli attack that stopped the rockets; the people killed in Lebanon were effectively killed to no other effect than to serve as a propaganda tool fo Hezbollah, with Israel doing it’s own enemy’s dirty work.

And it’s still terrorism, whether it worked or not. If Hebollah’s terrorism somehow managed to destroy Israel, would that make it OK ? Or is it only Israeli or American terrorism that is excusable ?

75% of Lebanon was virtually untouched.
The airport was taken out, and roads into Syria (odd that, after the roads to Syria were taken out taxi drivers were charging $1,000 to drive to the Syrian border)

An oil refinery was targeted, resulting in a massive oil slick, but the damage to North Lebanon was trivial. The biggest fuss was about Israel bombing two trucks parked in an upmarket residential area - they had water drills on them, which probably looked like Scuds.

The South Lebanese infrastructure was thoroughly shattered, yet there were only around 1,200 deaths - 800,000 refugees were in Beirut proper.
Incidentally we only have Hezbollah’s word for 1,200 deaths, and they have every incentive to do a bit of double counting.

If one looks at it, the actual proportion of the S. Lebanese population that were killed is astonishingly low, less than half the number who died on 9/11.

From everything I have heard on the BBC World Service (radio), North Lebanon was business as usual throughout. The Israelis conducted a surgical operation.

Possibly your news media are mis-reporting what really happened, the BBC is usually extremely reliable, if they told lies then they would lose all credibility and would not be worth running, they are a sort of ‘propaganda service’ - a counter propaganda operation.

Regardless, look at the numbers. For the carnage in the South, 1,200 must make anyone wonder how such a low bodycount was acheived.

True, Hezbollah is still alive and kicking, but it is living in a toilet which will take years to rebuild - they may still have their guns and rockets, but those are not much use. No electricity, raw sewage in the streets, telecommunications and water supply taken out.

Incidentally this morning, on the radio, I heard an interview with a very chirpy young woman from Oxfam. It seems that they are sending aid for water and sewage to S. Lebanon, and that S. Lebanon has very strong NGOs.

Well there is only one NGO that I can think of in S. Lebanon

  • in plain English, Oxfam are about to give money to Hezbollah
  • Kafka-esque

:smack: I didn’t actually absorb the ‘July 12’ part. Thats what I get for posting when I’m more than half asleep.

-XT

CNN and internet stories point out that Hezbollah is actively assisting the rebuilding of Lebanon. They are also providing finacial aid. Yep ,they clearly lost. Unless the real battle is for hearts and minds.
Like it or not .the Lebanese will blame Israel for the damage and deaths. The devil made me do it wont float. Active on the ground assistance will win the day. So just like Iraq . power use results in a larger insurgency and more enemies. Oh when will we ever learn.

It is annoying that Hezbollah and Hamas are actually rather competent

  • if they had clear and non-suicidal objectives they would be a force for good
    (well the good of their populations)

The S. Lebanese would blame the Israelis for a blocked plug, who cares.
Perhaps one or two might wonder why they are still alive, but if they are that smart they will correctly assume that it was down to CNN or Fox News.

In Lebanon, 25% of the population are ‘insurgent’, and the other 75% are heaving a sigh of relief that the slightly mad 25% have got out of their car parks.

The last month has changed nothing, except that 1,000,000 people are now living in a toilet.

I have a strong suspicion that if there are any more Katyusha attacks, it would be 900,000

  • next time no leaflets ?

Give you a nice warm fuzzy feeling wouldn’t it. ? I think we all know that the great majority of the civilians are just trying to get by. One day at a time. In my humble opinion, this war provided little for Israel. Why would another one get a new result?
Serious negotiations, thats what I want. With the US involved. But not Bolton.

Yeah, that happens when you bomb people, and make it clear that you don’t care.

http://www.iht.com/bin/print_ipub.php?file=/articles/2006/08/04/opinion/edshlaim.php Another opinion to completely and totally reject.

Not AGAIN

Before I once again point out that you have posted yet another drive by link, why don’t you detail why you think its important and quote some of the relevant points in your cite for discussion?

-XT

You know something? You are absolutely right here. THATS probably why the Israeli’s don’t give a shit about either the Lebanese OR the Palestinians! Damn…thats pretty astute of you. I’m surprised…

-XT

Speaking O drive by links, I’ve been reading around in the Jerusalem Post today, and they seem quite unhappy with the conduct and results of this little invasion.
Here’s a few articles and opinions to give the flavor:
Soldiers unhappy with war handling

Why go to war if you don’t intend to fight?

Editor’s Notes: Vital lessons from a ‘premature’ war

Fight for the peace

Israel is decidely not a happy, victorious nation right now.

And IMHO they have a right to be unhappy too. As I said in the OP, I think the entire campaign was poorly thought out and definitely poorly executed. Their goals were nebulous and seemed to shift. They were seriously unprepared for the actual fighting (contrary to those who think Israel planned the whole thing every thing I’VE read indicates an almost startled response). And on the political front its just about as bad, as the political leadership also seems to have lacked a clear vision of just what the hell they were supposed to be doing in Lebanon.

As I said above, I am definitely a supporter of Israel…but I think that, unfortunately, they fucked up on this one. I don’t believe that invading Lebanon or going after Hezbollah was the wrong thing to do…I think they went about it in the wrong way. And I fear that they will pay for this fuckup for years to come…

-XT

Your sarcasm is wasted on someone who despises both sides. I’m not a supporter of anyone there but the innocents caught in the middle.

You know, I could almost believe you and while I might disagree with a pacifist’s stance I could respect it. However, you have repeatedly said words to the effect that the ONLY thing that matters to you is civilian deaths in Lebanon. No circumstances other than that are in play…in your own mind. I’ve yet to hear your similar rage that the ONLY (other) thing that matters to you is the innocent civilian deaths in Israel.

Funny that…no? I remain, unfortunately, unconvinced. My conclusion? My sarcasm was well spent.

-XT

I’m not a pacifist.

Because they are so few compared to the deaths in Lebanon, and inflicted by the side the people I’m arguing against agree with. Do I need to convince you that the deaths of innocent Israelis are bad ? No ? I thought not.

I totally agree. You can’t blame the state of israel for what a terrorist organazation did.

I appologize. however I believe iwe have been debating this topic and all it;s permutations for over 30 days. In my humble estimation almost all of it is relevant. When I posted I expected this, But damnit we have coverered a lot of ground, so quit crying and read the damn thing.

Dont read it forget it. It won’t matter anyway.