Just seen a report about the protests in Israel against the court decision banning the segregation between sephardic and ashkenazi children in religious schools.
What wasn’t explained is why the protesters thought that such a segregation was religiously mandated. Could someone explain?
Sorry, I intended to post this thread in GQ.
Could a moderator move it there?
Moved from Great Debates.
It isn’t*. What they’re arguing is that the State shouldn’t be involved in their education system, and in broader terms, that the State shouldn’t take precedence over their religious laws. It’s something that’s been building up for a while, and it’s not between Ashkenzim and Sephardim, it’s between Ultra-Orthodox and secular Israelis (with non-Ultra Orthodox Israelis doing their best to hide their heads in the sand).
(*I think there have been a few people who have tried to explain it on religious grounds, but religious bullshitters can explain *anything *on religious grounds).
As a Jewish but not necessarily Israeli perspective (and well, secondhand Jewish), Sephardic and Ashkenazic Jews have some notable differences in the way they practice a few things, most notably in dietary/kosher restrictions (ESPECIALLY during Passover).
One could make a case for segregating them at lunch (or being strict enough to conform to both traditions) on those grounds, I suppose.
This doesn’t address the point of how this situation started. The Ashkenazi Haredim are very insistent on complete separation from irreligious influences. Sephardi Haredim tend to be somewhat more open, tend to have contact with non-Haredi relatives, etc. So many of the Sephardi families aren’t “pure” enough for the Ashkenazi Haredim who send their kids to this school. And of course there is probably some good old fashioned anti-Sephardi bigotry, which is or was common among Israeli Ashkenazim, Haredi or not.
In any case, as Alessan said, at this point it’s about government interference/involvement in the Haredi educational system, which Haredim oppose rather zealously.*
As I understand it, after the court ordered the school to be integrated, some Ashkenazi parents chose to send their kids to a private school in other town. The court is forcing the Ashkenazi parents to send their kids back to the school or go to jail.
*Other than paying for it, of course. There are some stridently anti-Zionist sects who don’t take government funding for their schools, but most Haredim are glad to.
It’s almost completely gone among non-Haredi Israelis, at least those under 50.
What proportion of the Israeli population are Haredi? From an outsider’s perspective, every time I hear about internal trouble that doesn’t stem from Hamas or Hezbollah, it’s the Haredi. Throwing rocks at gay pride parades, throwing rocks at people driving on the Sabbath, building settlements in what’s supposed to be Palestinian territory, refusing otherwise mandatory military service, demanding the government support them so they can spend all their waking hours studying Scripture…how big of an influence do they actually have in Israel and is it as disproportionate to their numbers as it seems from here?
About 10% of Israeli Jews, about 8% of the entire Israeli population. They’re not spread out, though. There are certain Haredi neighborhoods, Haredi areas, Haredi towns. So, for instance, there aren’t many Haredi in Tel Aviv, but just east of Tel Aviv is Bnei Brak, which is almost entirely Haredi. Or, for instance, in Jerusalem, Mea Shearim is almost entirely Haredi.
Those aren’t Haredim. Although there are some Haredi settlements in Judea and Samaria, they tend to be on the periphery, and it’s more a government land-use thing than an ideological thing. In general, settlements are a Zionist idea, and the Haredim are not Zionists. Their politics tend to be more centrist, and Haredi MK’s have supported or abstained from crucial Knesset votes such as the ratification of the 1994 Oslo Peace Accords and the 2005 Gaza withdrawal.
My mistake, then…I had thought the settlers were ultra-Orthodox.
Wait . . . wouldn’t picking a rock up and throwing it count as ‘work’? I mean, practically everything is a no-no on the Sabbath.
Us non-Orthodox Israelis have been wondering that for years.
Nicolas Bourbaki:
Not within an Eruv. And practically the entire city of Jerusalem is enclosed within an Eruv.
That’s the rope/wire thing surrounding all the houses so they’re technically one big building, right?
I found this article informative: Ultra-Orthodox Jews rally round parents jailed for defying Israeli court ruling | Israel | The Guardian
AFAICT, they’re mostly just regular Orthodox. A lot of them seem to be immigrants from the US and other western countries, actually. This is anecdotal, but I visited a settlement (Efrat) once, to see a friend who was living with his aunt and uncle there, and it was weirdly like an American suburb. Kind of surreal to see, in the Judean desert. They had the Efrat Little League schedule attached to the fridge with a magnet. My friend’s aunt and uncle were from Nashville, btw.