I guess youlll object the next time Israel is called a “western Democracy”, Adaher?
Can you clarify what you mean with the comparison to Belgium?
Being Belgian, I’m curious what your views are about my country.
I think he has an issue with the Belgian legal system, Elfje, but I’ve long since given up trying to get reason out of adaher when it comes to Israeli issues.
Okay, so what do we do here, judging Israel w such different and harsh criterions than those applied fort he rest of the world?
Let me, pls, put forward some q’s and, humbly, when applicable, my two cents:
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Is there any q that Israel is the ancestral home of the Jewish nation? I think not.
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Is there any q that the Israelis have every right to say “This is mine”? I think not.
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Do the Palestinians have the right to state that this tiny speck of land is theirs, rightfully? I think not. Reason? The Jews were exiled from there, but, never, never did they forget their land and never, never, did they relinquish their right over it. The others who came and took it knew all along to whom it belonged. Now, they are there on their own bad chances and they should complain only to themselves, when the Israelis say rightfully “It’s mine” and act accordingly.
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Is there any other society and army in the world which would behave with the restraint the Israelis display in the face of such barbarities and bestialities as the Palestinians perform? I think not and the facts are plain for all to see. Did I mention the fact that Israel can wipe out the Palestinians in one hour, but they don’t do it, unlike others w their enemies in the very recent history?
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The West vs Israel:
Did I mention colonialism old and contemporary (France in their colonies, as far as New Caledonia, England as near as Ireland, Wales and Scotland, Spanish and Portuguese colonies)? Did I mention WW II atrocities in Europe? The Balkan wars in the 90’s and passive Netherland soldiers in the Srebrenica massacre? A flattened Chechnia? Fascism and dictatorships down to the 70’s in Spain and Portugal?
Did I mention the huge peace camp in Israel (mentioned, already, above), the, otherwise, good and cordial relationships between Israelis and their Arab and Palestinians neighbors, which are reciprocated with treachery in many cases, by Palestinians, who stab in the back, literally, thier employers in Israel, a day after they are given clothes and food for their families, by same employer?
What do you, people, know, really, about Israel, except for what a shortsighted friend of yours is telling you? Not one bit, believe me.
The Israelis are ready to make room for the Palestinians, in Israel, or in Jordan, which will be the case in the future, probably. It is the Arabs in gen and the Palestinians, in particular, who don’t accept them and never will.
The Israel situation is a sad one, but, not w/o solution and for that matter, one in which Israel will be the sovereign in the country.
What a bunch of crap. Israel is destroying the Palestinians any way they can. They have done so for years. I sincerely doubt that anyone really believes that there is an underlying and uniquely Palestinian trait of deceit running through their veins any more than they belived that the Jews were out to destroy Europe in the 1930’s. Whether or not the Jews have an ancient history in the region is only as relevant as whether or not the Palestinians have an ancient history in the region.
Is Israel being magnanimous by saying “You can freely live in OUR land after we dismantle your country.”?? About time for another shift on the bulldozer, isn’t it?
Never mind anyway, the tide is turning, and if the USA wants Palestine to exist as a nation it will. If the USA decides that Palestinian statehood is not as important as Israeli statehood, they will perish. For that matter, if the US decides that Israel needs a regime change, you will find that Americans may “discover” that all along you, Israel, have been the criminals and terrorists.
If Israel decides to openly defy the USA, they will find out through the american media that they have been butchers and criminals all along, and THEY will perish or at least suffer the same as any allies the US decides to discard.
I think it the epitome of hubris for Israel to believe that ANY position of power within the US hegemonic hierarchy is permanent. See the thin end of the wedge slipping in simply by the reporting of these incidents in North American media. Ten years ago we would have heard that some “spies” in the Isaeli Defence Foce had “disappeared on the way to trial”…nothing more. The fact that the stance of these dissidents is given the slightest exposure is deeply indicative of an emerging populist and official stance regarding Israel…
Anyhow, if the Israeli position as Saddam’s replacement to stabilise American dominance over the oilfields is permanent, then Palestine will disappear as “collatteral damage”. If the US feels that it can maintain control without the huge expense of supporting Israel, then Israel will be discarded like any other sovereign nation who has outlived their usefulness. Just like Iraq was discarded and crushed after it decided to step out of the American line.
Yes, a complete change from freedom fighters to dirty terrorist bastards in one fell swoop. It can happen to Israel in the exact same fashion.
1stChristian, I just loved the post. Fantastic. Fabulous, really, just fabulous.
Especially the very last part, "-- Love - Always & All Ways –
" combined with a few choice statements like, “Palestinians, who stab in the back, literally, their employers in Israel, a day after they are given clothes and food for their families, by same employer.” Sure, you can spew racist, misinformed claims all that you want, but it won’t make you right.
Let’s be realistic about this, holding on to long term historical grudges is the highest form of idiocy in any conflict and this one is no different. Just because some book says that some piece of land belonged to someone thousands of years ago and still belongs to them is worthless. Similarly, the fact that the Palestinians may have lost their land unfairly fifty years ago, although more recent, also needs to be ignored. The fact is, we can’t just, “go back to the way it was,” especially because we have two separate pasts.
What we have now is a mutually untenable situation for both parties. The Israeli’s face a nearly decade long recession and the constant threat of terrorism in addition to the onerous costs of attempting to secure themselves against terrorism. The Palestinians have been robbed of a home, security in their current situation from having their houses knocked over or getting blown up from an Israeli Apache, and any economic viability because they are blocked from traveling outside of an extremely close range for any reason really.
The situation needs to change, and it needs to be a compromise granting both Israel and a Palestinian state sovereignty and international recognition. How are we going to get there? I haven’t the damndest idea, but I feel that at least some people on both sides recognize this fact. The largest remaining challenge is for political leaders to control their own side from launching terrorist attacks on Israel or moving settlers illegally into Palestinian territory.
To more directly address the OP, I think that every individual has to make a choice at some point in their lives to either conform or not conform to something that they view as wrong. Sure, the specific orders given by the IDF may not be be thought of as illegal, but some reasonableness has to be applied to what are the likely effects of any action.
What if an American aviator refused to carry out bombing sorties in Afghanistan because they were afraid of injuring innocents? Sure, the orders may be to kill some Taliban member, but at some point, an individual has to realize that that bomb may miss its mark or the target could have ended up being 10 kids, a wedding party, Canadian troops, or even a Special Forces convoy to begin with. After some level of continued failure of your commanders to adequately discern targets or provide you with the means to do so, don’t you have to question your own involvement with the process?
What should the IDF do? Well, from a practical standpoint, the answer is obvious. They need to punish strongly and visibly those who refuse to follow orders that the IDF has generally decided to be appropriate measures for combating terrorism. Morally? That’s a much more difficult question to answer. For the populace and politicians of Israel, when elite troops begin to refuse to follow orders because they view them as morally unacceptable, they need to take a serious look at the policies used in dealing with Palestinians. My personal view is that the current policies pursued by Israel in the form of illegal settlement, military intervention in refugee camps, blocking Palestinian travel between Palestinian areas, and constructing a wall around Palestinian territory is just as big of obstruction to the peace process as terrorism in Israel is.
let’s get back to the OP’s main issue: how should an army treat soldiers who refuse to obey orders.
One Israeli politician said it very clearly: The army is not a debating forum where free speech is the highest moral right. The army is a
non-democratic institution. But without such a non-democratic institution–a democratic, free country cannot exist.
These soldiers are free to refuse, and REQUIRED to refuse to obey any specific order which is clearly immoral.(for example, opening fire on a non-violent crowd.) But they are not free to categorically refuse all orders whatever in a certain geographical area. The decision to send soldiers to a certain location is made by the democratic institutions of society–the politicians, and the voters. The obligation to obey those democratic decisions is not a free choice for individual soldiers.
For example, a policeman cannot refuse to arrest me for robbing a rich man’s home, even though the cop thinks I was justified because I am planning to donate the stolen money to the poor, and am only stealing for a good cause,fighting for some wierd kind of social justice.The policeman must follow the law, and arrest me. If its a bad law, or a bad military policy in the West Bank , the place to challenge it is in the courts and the ballot box.
threemae, don’t ever “idiot” me, nor others, even implicitly, okay?
As for my signature - don’t ever confuse “LIKE” w “LOVE” and vice-versa. I may not like you, but I’ll always love you, since you’re my neightbor. I’ll always come to your rescue and help, if I’ll only be able to, you can be sure of this.
W those two pts settled, let’s move on.
quote you:
“Palestinians, who stab in the back, literally, their employers in Israel, a day after they are given clothes and food for their families, by same employer.” Sure, you can spew racist, misinformed claims all that you want, but it won’t make you right."
unquote
Not only is this info correct, accurate and true, and I take an oath by it, but I could give you many more instances of such, along w others which will make your hair stand on end. These will serve as living witness to the barbarism of the Palestinians and the Arabs. If you are not well informed about the subject, then don’t lead others into thinking differently and disinform them. Read, inform and educate yourself if you want to take part in a debate, esp in such a loaded one.
As for the historical grudge you try to raise as an argument against the Israeli policy. Pls, allow me to review in short the history, okay? Thank you!
Sad to say so, but no one wanted the Jews among them. Fact. They, even, killed them, you know? It is so even now, in many places. This is called antisemitism if you don’t know it.
Left w/o any other choice, the Jews took their fate in their hands in the late 1900’s and, for better and for worse, they chose their ancestral homeland, ancient Israel and Jehudah, as the place of the rebirth of the renewed Jewish nation. It was chosen after a few other places, like Uganda and the Sinai peninsula in Egypt, were discarded as potential settlements. This, the renewed nation of Israel/Jews, is an unparalleled global success by any standard, in almost any area of life, esp when you consider the short time span in which it was performed, less than 100 yrs, under constant hostile and life-threatening circumstances.
What are you suggesting now, that they throw behind their back their only viable and valid argument for being there? That they go back to the very places that saw the pogroms and the hatred and the persecutions and the discrimination against them? That they give up the only place they have, by right, only b/c someone dares say “this is mine”? By what right does this someone say so? Only b/c he came as a thief in the middle of the night and, looking left and right and seeing nobody (the original landlord has been exiled, remember?) he took posession of the property? Can you tell me honestly that you approve of this? Would you go to war, or fleeing a calamity, and when coming back, seeing someone else in your house, you will stand by and offer him salt and bread? I think you won’t be doing so.
To digress, as you did, in your post, you don’t know who your enemy is, as an American fighting the Islamic fundamentalists. I and others, can be only too glad that you and the like of you are not at the helm of this country.
It would seem to me that the soldiers introduced in the OP know more than ANYONE about fighting the Islamic fundamentalist, more than you or I will ever know.
They have collectively and simply stated that the orders given them are immoral and illegal, and detrimental to the development of Israel as a democratic and humane state. They have relied on the basic and inalienable human right to self-determination and to refuse any task that they feel undermines a just and democratic socitey.
Yes they are in the armed forces, and by joining that organisation they DO give up some rights of self-determination. On the other hand, if the armed sevice does not allow for individuals to judge whether or not they are protecting what they deem humane and just, or whether they are simply carrying out orders that do NOT fit into a pre-concieved model of defence, then they are not an armed service at all but simply indentured killers or assassins if you like. This applies to ALL armed services, and the ones that have altruistic motives and actions all allow for refusal to carry out unlawful orders.
I would like to see the Israeli doctrine that specifically denies members of the armed service the right to consider the legality, national or international, of their actions. I would leave the consideration of morality as an inalienable human right, precluding and surpassing any military contract entered into previous to the issue at hand. If there is no provision under Israeli military law for refusal to carry out illegal orders, then Israel is already on the side of dictatorship.
But all these things are moot. IMHO if the States wants a Palestinian nation to be defined arbitrarily much as Israel was, it will happen regardless of Israeli ideology, and unfortunately for Israel if they deny the American wishes, they will assume the seat recently vacated by Saddam Hussein. I would bet that Israel could be demonized just as quickly as Saddam, and would put up relatively little resistance militarily. Israel may be much stronger than Iraq ever was, but still is insignificant compared to the Americans. If the US decides that more profit can be made by re-aligning itself with the surrounding nations, then Israel will immeidately suffer the consequences. The idea would in that case become “Is it legal for Jewish American soldiers to refuse to carry out aggression against Israel?” I don’t think this is far-fetched at all.
You could stand to back down from the condescending little remarks yourself, m’kay?
And now, let’s get down to something a bit more substantial. I’m not calling you an idiot, but I stand by saying that it most certainly is the worst form of thinking to hold onto ancient and unimportant historical grudges to define modern policy. Would you like to hand back whatever parcel of land your house is sitting upon now to the Native American that it “rightfully” belongs to? I doubt it. The wrongs of the long lost past, especially in pertinence to property, simply needs to be forgotten. The situation that we have now is what we have now, and no level of bible-thumping will change the reality of the situation. So drop the argument that Israeli’s have any particular right to a homeland or whatever. Or are you gonna’ start off on the Armenians or Kurds in Turkey next? And again, do you plan on giving up your house to Native Americans?
I’m sure that you could. Now I’m going to produce a few that go the other way. But don’t misinterpret this. This is not to start a pissing match with you. We could come up with every event of the Palestinean-Israeli conflict back for years, and all it would not prove that one side is better than another. Only that they have both done some pretty horrible things.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3349753.stm
Pretty relevant to the current thread
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3348159.stm[/rl]
Oh, and those two bystanders deserved to die? Israel is choosing to use methods that they know have a high risk of producing civilian deaths.
Yes, reading and education, reading and education…
Oh god, I pray that you are not either.
Roland, my friend, will you believe me when I tell you that I know as much as they? Just as much. No need to detail, but, suffice it to say that I know.
Illegal commands - yes, the Israeli law gives the right to defy a “clearly” illegal order. Now, reckon, pls, that Israel, and I think you’ll agree w me in that, is caught in a life and death struggle, unlike ALL the rest of the world. This is to say that the above mentioned law makes Israel special, very, very special.
Sadly, I have to agree w you in the possibility of an American leaning on Israel. Yes, this is definitely a probable possibility.
threemae, I do not patronize and do not snub, but you said improper and incorrect things , so…
Now, getting substantial, I’d like to ask you a q, if I may: do you really think that there can be a comparison made between Israel, w no place to go, but their ancestral one, and other societies, i.e., the Americans? W all the pain and suffering which this is causing to others, and it does, what are the Jews to do? Now, no matter how much I disagree w them, do you think that the Palestinians really need this quarrel when they have so many places to go to?
I know this will raise a brow, but try to consider those two q’s, really try it!
I wish it would be otherwise, but you just don’t know your enemy. This is now the Islam.
Actually, do detail. I would like to know just how you’ve come to find all of this information. All of this incredible, hidden information that you haven’t been able to grace us with so far.
1stChristian, if you will please note, I did not compare Israel with Americans. I compared them with Native Americans. I presume that you see what I’m getting at. Israeli’s lose their land thousands of years ago, Native Americans lose theirs hundreds of years ago, along with the Armenians, a few Kurds, a few Muslim Moores, etc. And yet you think that the Israeli homeland takes special precedence above all of this? Let me ask you again, why? None of these groups got a friendly goodbye letter, and none received a friendly ‘Welcome to the Neighborhood’ gift-basket either. A few non-virulent Anti-Semitic places to settle: United States, Canada, Mexico, South America, Spain, Great Britain, Ireland, Australia, Japan, Southeast Asia. So, please, motivate this for me again? Bonus points if you can do so without using theological sources. Well, lots and lots of bonus points.
Let me make the point again that I don’t think Israel should just pack up and leave, that’s a ludicrous suggestion. But neither can the Palestineans. Unless, of course, 1stChristian, since your such a great lover and want the whole “quarrel” avoided, why don’t they move in with you?
Finally, I know Muslims. They are not my enemy.
Perhaps you should take a second to clarify yourself from when you said, “know your enemy. This is now the Islam.” I see you didn’t bother to preface it with anything about extremism.
If not, there’s a pit thread with your name on it.
Well, threemae, I lived in Israel until two yrs ago and fought actively there in 3 wars, the 67, the 73 and the 82 ones. I was in Sinai, in the Golan heights, in Gaza and in the West Bank. My wife was in the 67 war front as an active soldier, my son was in the army, all my fam was in the army and fought in all of the wars there, including our Independence War, in 48.
(I live here, b/c of some special circumstances; english is not my native lang.)
I will spare you narative descriptions of what shape did we find our, luckily, few, dead soldiers on the Syrian front in the 73 war, on the Golan Heights. I will spare you what a young arab did to a still living Israeli soldier after they kidnapped him a few yrs ago and how the crowd cheered in front of the Palestinian police station in which he was linched while still living. An Italian journalist who videotaped and broadcasted it, was discredited by the Palestininas authorities, then. I leave it to you to guess why.
Yes, I beg your pardon, I should precede the word ‘extremists’ in front of the Islam word, but, try to remember the Palestinians dancing in the streets of Brooklyn, IMMEDIATELY after 9/11, giving candies to each other (it was recorded on video and broadcasted, worldwide) and you’ll see what I mean. They were not hard core al-Qaeda members, they just displayed their, so sorry to say it, character. They live in this country but, still, they spit in the well from which they drink and slap the hand which gives them bread.
Finally, the q of where should the Jews go. Can you vouch for us that another holocaust will not happen? I tell you as a Jewish individual, that I do not take it out of consideration, never and nowhere. B/c of this I have only and only one place, the old homeland of mine, this is the only valid argument I can make to argumentate the raison d’etre of being there. Sorry for the inconvenience, but after what Europe did to “me” during almost two thou yrs, culminating in the slaughter in every conceivable shape and manner of 7.000.000 men, women and children Jews by the Germans in Europe, in the civilized 20th cent, I would like to believe that I’m not paranoidic about it. Others took an active part in it, too, don’t fool yourself it was not so.
I really can not say that what I do is 100% right, but I do know that it saves our lives, in the end, no matter how hard it is, and this makes it right. The Palestinians can go to 21 countries, if they only would want to. I know, it’s hard, but not impossible. I? I don’t have a corner of mine in the whole wide world, except this tiny and inconspicuous piece of land. So there I go and raise my children and achieve in a very short time, things which other nations only dream about, even now.
We, the Israelis, have an indestructible and invincible spirit by default. We just don’t have any other choice. So we have Nobel prizes, satelites in the sky, an army to be proud of (not in a militaristic way, believe me), a forefront technology, science, culture and society infrastructure. We absorbed, more or less successfully, millions of other Jews in less that 50 yrs and if not for Israel, the Jews worldwide would have been muredered again en-masse, of this we are sure.
This is the reason we are there, w/o any religious arguments.
I guess youlll object the next time Israel is called a “western Democracy”, Adaher?
Columbia is a Western democracy, for what it’s worth.
**Can you clarify what you mean with the comparison to Belgium?
**
Belgium currently lives in a pretty safe area of the world. Belgium is also a good world citizen. The point is that Israel is molded by the area it lives in, and it serves little purpose for people who live in relative safety to judge the security policies of nations that live in constant danger.
**What a bunch of crap. Israel is destroying the Palestinians any way they can. They have done so for years. **
They must be pretty lousy at it then. I guess Jews just aren’t cut out for this ethnic cleansing thing. Sharon should have his soldiers court-martialed, those lazy bums! Thousands of troops in the West Bank and they only kill a Palestinian a day?! Milosevic would never have tolerated such laziness!
Roland Saul, you’ve been reading way to much Marxist propaganda to think that everything America does is related to profit. Especially in the case of Israel. Israel is a major strategic liability to the US. The only reason we defend Israel is becuase of our values, and it has nothing to do with money. Economically, we’d be much better off if we did like the everyone else and openly sided with the Arabs.
Anyone would be better off financially if they were able to side with their enemies. So what? I cannot follow the relevance of that statement to this argument.
I would ask precisely what values it is that make America side with Israel. Would it be the same “values” that made America side with Saddam in the first place, or would it be the values that made America install the Shah or Pinochet? Then again maybe it’s the keen sense of righteousness that has brought Afghanistan to the forefront of enlightened and peaceful society it is today. Given the track record of American intervention in the Middle East, I cannot reconcile the idea of defence or stability with any previous American efforts.
Of course Israel is a strategic liability. What strategy is underlying is the issue. Does the fact that there are huge amounts of oil in Iraq and nothing else of importance to America somehow preclude a profit-based motivation in the Middle East? I think not.
And why would it be of strategic importance anyway?? Perhaps the US fears an invasion by the mighty Syria or those dreaded Iraqis after all? You know, first it’s Kuwait, then a simple hop across the Atlantic to lay waste the shores of New Jersey…
I would appreciate it if you didn’t attept to put words in my mouth also. I have never said that everything America does is profit-related. But in the light of what is at stake in the Middle East, the obvious benefactors of total control of the oilfields should be plain to see. Shudder to think what would happen if the resources of sovereing nations would fall under their own control. Then the biggest consumers of fuel would be forced to pay accordingly.
“Let the free market reign”, remember?
To say that this has anything whatsoever to do with Marxism is ridiculous. I would genuinely enjoy seeing the world’s oil markets be a free market, which should be an indicator of my Marxist tendencies right there, but that would mean an immediate and drastic cost increase on this side of the Atlantic. That to me illustrates clearly the motivation for any “strategic” interest in a region that has absolutely no other value to North America than that of commodity based profit…
That it not what it came accross, the first time you compared Israel to Belgium. In fact, what it did sound like, was an accusation of cowardice. I take offense to that.
May I point out to you that Belgium was the battlefield for both World Wars, especially the first? that it was due to the brave little Belgians that the French could regroup and stop the Germans? (the Schliefen Plan, which meant violating Belgians official neutrality so the Germans wouldn’t have to go through the Alsace, where they knew France had grouped its army).
The Belgians were that opposed to the second world war that they asked for the abdication of their King (Leopold III) because they found he was a bit too friendly with the Germans during WWII.
The Belgians may not have been as pursued as the Jewish, but they certainly know what it is to be oppressed, in succession we’ve had the Normans, the French (for a loooong time), we cooperated with the English for a while (which didn’t endear us in the eyes of the French), then we had the Spanish, and after that, finally the Dutch. I may have forgotten the Prussians somewhere inbetween. We only gained independance in 1830, and apart from the very lamentable goings on in Congo (which Leopold II saw as his own private colony, for him to bleed dry as he wished, and indeed only “giving” it to the belgian government after he had bled it dry and committed numerous atrocities.) we were never the aggressors. We never assaulted our neighbours, and yet, we still exist. We even managed to form the EU, no mean feat for a very small country in Western Europe that no big state back then took seriously.
I guess it goes to show how co-operating with your neighbouring countries, instead of bullying them, pays off.
In the past ten years that Israel has “clamped down” on terrorism, and flexed its muscles, that threat has only increased, not decreased.
I suppose if you compare Israel to Belgium unfavourably in that respect, i take it as a compliment.
elfje,
Um, then how come the EU can’t agree on a constitution?
Personally, I think more than a few Poles or Czechs may disagree that the powers-that-be in the EU aren’t bullies.
**I would ask precisely what values it is that make America side with Israel. Would it be the same “values” that made America side with Saddam in the first place, or would it be the values that made America install the Shah or Pinochet? Then again maybe it’s the keen sense of righteousness that has brought Afghanistan to the forefront of enlightened and peaceful society it is today. Given the track record of American intervention in the Middle East, I cannot reconcile the idea of defence or stability with any previous American efforts.
**
The real world is not easily broken down into simple motivations. The US has acted cynically in the past towards nations it has little relationship with aside from economic, such as Chile or Iran. The US’s connection to the fate of the Jewish people though is of a much more visceral nature, and is not subject to the realities of realpolitik. And Arab states are not our enemies. We risk bad relations with them over Israel despite the economic damage it has done to us in the past. But we do not side with Israel because we hate the Arabs. We do it because we love the Jews. We want them both to get along, but if it comes down to a fight, we will take the side of Israel regardless of what it costs us.
**I would appreciate it if you didn’t attept to put words in my mouth also. I have never said that everything America does is profit-related. But in the light of what is at stake in the Middle East, the obvious benefactors of total control of the oilfields should be plain to see. Shudder to think what would happen if the resources of sovereing nations would fall under their own control. Then the biggest consumers of fuel would be forced to pay accordingly.
“Let the free market reign”, remember?
**
That’s exactly what is happening in Iraq. The democratic governement will decide what happens with the oil fields.
**That it not what it came accross, the first time you compared Israel to Belgium. In fact, what it did sound like, was an accusation of cowardice. I take offense to that.
**
Hardly. I am well aware of Belgium’s willingness to stand up and fight against German aggression.
**I guess it goes to show how co-operating with your neighbouring countries, instead of bullying them, pays off.
**
When they are interested in being your friends, yes. Belgium showed little interest in cooperation when neighboring states were adversarial towards it. LIke I said, it’s easy to say, “Look I can work with the 2003 version of France and Germany, why can’t you work with the Arabs?” It would be as absurd as the US citing its relationship with Canada and then criticizing Belgium in 1914 for not getting along with Germany better.
**In the past ten years that Israel has “clamped down” on terrorism, and flexed its muscles, that threat has only increased, not decreased.
**
When Israel has clamped down, the threat has decreased, sharply. Israel has not clamped down in the last ten years, but in the last three years. In the previous seven, Israel withdrew from most of the West Bank and terrorism skyrocketed. Israel is not stupid. They recognize that the carrot only brings them more misery and the stick decreases it.
We could turn this statement around and ask what terrorism against Israelis is accomplishing for the Palestinians. No one ever asks what Palestinian terrorism does to the Israeli street. It seems to be radicalizing it, as the election and re-election of Ariel Sharon proves.
Personally, I think more than a few Poles or Czechs may disagree that the powers-that-be in the EU aren’t bullies.
Haven’t you been told? They have not been brought up well and are supposed to shut up.
I dont know. I think this is a little gem.
It’s dangerous, but it’s not a simple thing. A lot of people feel that some German and Japanese soldiers in WWII should have disobeyed their orders. Some German general got HANGED for giving those orders.
Obviously, the soldiers aren’t being asked to do the same things the Nazis and the WWII Japanese did, but the question arises – when do your responsibilities as a human being trump your responsibilities as a soldier?