Ezra’s suggestion (not Israel’s policy) sounds ridiculous to me. However, it’s hard to think of a policy that isn’t ridiculous.
What would the US do if an internal group (for the sake of discussion let’s call them “Democrats”) were setting off bombs to kill random men, women, and children?
Would we arrest all Democrats? Impossible – there are too many.
Kill the ring-leaders? But, could they be indentified? Is is OK to kill them without a trial? Would they be re;laced by other leaders?
Put up with the slaughter? How could we ignore the murder of innocents?
Start an all-out war to drive the Democrats out of the country? This one has some plausibility, but it’s horrible to contemplate.
I’m loath to criticze, since I don’t know what to do.
It’s a horrible idea.
However, to ascribe this idea to “Israel” when it’s nowhere near being official state policy is incorrect. “Israel” hasn’t gone nuts. Some members of Parliament have.
He is Israel’s deputy minister of internal security. What if his British equivalent had advocated the ‘liquidation’ of the fathers of IRA terrorists?
Luke
Gideon Ezra?
Hmm… the name rings a few bells, but not many. A minor right-wing crank, not someone with any sort of political leverage. The article wasn’t specific, but I think we can assume that he was blowing his top at some left-wing pundit at some ad-hoc news panel one of the Israeli TV channels put together after a bombing. Israeli politicians tend to be somewhat hot-headed, especially when they think they can get a sound-bite.
Bear in mind, Israeli Deputy Ministers have about the same amount of authority as American Deputy Governers - namely, next to none. And you should also remember that the Ministry of Internal Security (AKA the “Department of Justice”) is not in charge of “liquidations”, but rather the Ministry of Defense.
In other words, you have an asshole politician trying to score points with his more extreme constituants and get himself on the 8 o’clock news. Nothing to get really excited about.
I’m actually quite relieved (sp?) to read that. I’m not being sarcastic, btw!
Pukey
<< What if his British equivalent had advocated the ‘liquidation’ of the fathers of IRA terrorists? >>
The difference is that the IRA terrorists were not suicidal, so you can try to capture them, try them, etc.
The Palestinian terrorists are suicidal. What can you threaten them with to try to deter them? “If you kill yourself with a bomb that kills other people, we’ll put your body in jail for the rest of its life…” has a hollow ring to it.
The only deterrent threat is to go after the family. When the attackers came from Israeli-controlled territory, the immediate family of suicide terrorists was arrested on “conspiracy” and “complicancy” charges, and sometimes the family property was bulldozed. The idea was to create the serious threat: you’re not just killing yourself, you’re condemning your family to jail and poverty.
The speaker of the quote is obviously a right-wing loon, but the underlying thought – of punishing the family for the suicide terrorist’s actions – is not so far-fetched.
BTW, I point out that Israel is a democracy with a free press. People are allowed to say whatever they want, however stupid a minority view, and the press is allowed to publish it. I contrast that with the Palestinian press, which is tightly controlled – no one is ever quoted saying anything that disagrees with Arafat’s party line. People who do disagree are not allowed to hold interviews with the press. And since most of the Western reporters in the area don’t speak Arabic, so can’t do independent reporting (and aren’t allowed to, anyway), the views we hear from the Palestinians are exactly what their authorities want us to hear.
C K Dexter Haven:
Yes it is. Unless said family has a custodial status vis-a-vis the terrorist ( i.e. the terrorist is a minor living at home ), they are being punished for a crime they didn’t commit ( we’ll assume they’re blameless - if proven otherwise in a court of law, then we again have a different story ) and quite probably had no capacity to prevent. Bulldozing the homes of people or imprisoning people that have commited no crime, just to put pressure on someone that has or might, is an abomination. Or should be to any civilized society.
I have every sympathy for the “between a rock and a hard place” moral dilemma the Israelis find themselves in. It’s not easy making choices when you’re in an undeclared urban war. But the above tactic is simply unacceptable IMHO.
- Tamerlane
I think the restraint Israel has shown in dealing with dozens of its civilians being blown apart every week or two is amazing, personally.
Think about how intolerable one such incident would be to the U.S. government.
That said, what do you do? As I asserted in other threads on this subject, any deal struck with Arafat isn’t fit for outhouse use. He has no control over the people he purports to represent.
The terrorist attacks are designed with one goal in mind – goad Israel into war, in the hope other Islamic nations will join in the effort to wipe the Israeli state off the map if it happens.
Indeed,Tamerlane.
The idea that you can create such incentives IS far-fetched. Is there any evidence that this policy reduced violence? I would think it would only stir up more rage and violence.
Would there be a trial before the property was bulldozed? The first thing that came to mind was the “consequences” for the families of defectors or political criminals in communist states - family members would suffer prison, interrogation, lost jobs, decreased educational opportunities - just for being related to the person. Punishing one man for another man’s crimes offends my sense of justice, no matter the crime.
I think maybe they should feed their bodies to pigs.
That’s a bold statement considering that most (5 to 1) of the deaths in recent fighting are Palestinians. I understand why the Isrealis want to retaliate but their current policy is ridiculous. They are attacking the many because of the acts of a few.
Also, most violence on the Palestinan side is stone throwing although the fanatics are suicide-bombing. The Isreali’s retaliate with war machines.
Finally, the Isrealis have been making incursions into the West Bank, land that is not theirs. I wonder what the international community would think if the U.S. regularly went into Mexico to destroy police headquarters and civilian homes.
That said, though, I don’t believe that either group, at-large, is to blame. It is the leaders of each side and fanatical (uncontrollable) groups that are causing this whole mess. Arafat and Sharon both have innocent blood on their hands.
Killing civilians is a disgusting “policy” no matter who does it.
Well, they’ve often targeted the leaders of terrorist groups. Sounds like a good strategic move to me.
I don’t agree with any idea of attacking the family for the crimes of a son. However, over there the culture is pretty patriarchical. So, maybe it will be a deterrent? I don’t know, I don’t know the Palestinian culture very well.
I’m a Mid-Easterner and I can tell you that with every action the Isrealis take, justified or not, the Palestinians with the Arab world are getting angrier and angrier. They call Sharon “The Butcher” and believe that he is systematically destroying the peace process.
IIRC, I read somewhere that when this violence started 80% of both populations believed peace was still possible. Today that same number wants to use force on the other side. The Palestinians believe that the Isrealis have the ability and the will to kill them and they are moving towards the mindset of taking the Isrealis down with them. Of course that is the mindset that has been driving the suicide bombers but I believe that the whole lot of them are beginning to feel that way.
One final point about the Arab world… I’m a Christian but as you all know the Mid-East is 90-something percent Muslim. In Islam, when a crime is commited against the religion, it is the duty of all Muslims to fight. That means, if Israel isn’t careful they can provoke an all-too-possible regional war.
And if the wall in the Al-Aqsa compound collapses as a recent AOL News article said is likely (can’t find the link-but basically a huge bulge has developed in a wall of the smaller mosque, weakening the framework), we should all prepare for war.
I’m not coming here to defend Gideon Ezra’s stand, but two points:
a) First of all, I keep up on the news here in Israel pretty well, and I have heard nothing about his comments. That doesn’t mean he didn’t say them, but believe me, the press would have had a field day with it. Perhaps he was taken out of context by a foreign reporter.
b) Secondly, on an emotional level, while I don’t suggest killing the parents of the suicide bombers, I have an awful lot of anger towards them. After every suicide bombing, you have the parents interviewed, saying how much they support their sons actions, and how they wished all their children would do the same, and how they wish they could do the same. Imagine if Timothy McVeigh’s father had come out, in Oklahoma, praising his son.
The idea of killing the fathers of suicide bombers is no crazier than the idea of a suicide bomber itself.
…as they have seem to have forgotten some of the basic rules of living in civilization.
- First, you collect evidence.
- Then you arrest the alleged perpetrators.
- You have a trial.
- THEN you are allowed to kill them. Even China usually plays all this by the numbers.
Some countries would still find executions uncivilized, but at least the basic due process rights of all mankind would be upheld.
Why Israel does not see the irony of collecting Palestinians into little “ghettos” and systematically slaughtering them with military weapons (made in the good ole’ US of A)–I have no idea.
Sorry, but this is WAR. In WAR, these particular rules do not apply. At least not in any war I’ve ever heard of.
By “irony” are you trying to compare Israel’s policy vis a vis the Palestinians with the Nazi slaughter of the Jews? Just trying to make sure I’m following here.
The Palestinians are not in ghettos. They are in their own cities, and over 90% are ruled by the Palestinian authority.
As far as “systematically slaughtering” – can you give me an example of this so I can properly reply? I am familiar with the soldiers responding to attacks by stone throwers or bomb throwers, and I know about the elimination of terrorists, but I have not heard about “systematic slaughtering”.
Frankly, I’m offended that someone out there is using my name to spout such nonsense. :wally
While I share in the general outrage towards the suicide bombers, I think Israel still has an obligation to behave as a “light unto the nations.” But then again I don’t actually live there, so it’s easy for me to say.