I’m posting this in GD because I think it will dissolve into one even though I want to start it by asking some factual questions.
As someone who is generally educated, I know a little about the history of Israel. I am against the taking of land because it belonged to your ancestors, as I believe was done to build some Israeli settlements in the West Bank.
However, I believe that for the most part Israel has behaved ethically and in a rational manner when confronted with irrational, fanatical extremists on the Palestian side, those who dance with joy at the news of the WTC bombings.
However, I want to eduate myself more on the history of the region, so I would like some references of books that might discuss these things:
Of the land that was acquired by Jews in Israel during the years 1850-1939, how much of it was purchased from the current owners. My impression is that most of it was.
2.What percentage of land in the 1948 boundry of Israel was owned by someone who didn’t want to become an Israeli citizen? That might be difficult to determine, so we might generalize and count land owned by Muslim Arabs as an approximation.
What compensation was offered to the people in group mentioned in 2?
Of the land added to Israel after the wars of 1948 and 1967, what percentage is now privately owned by Israelis, what percentage is Public land?
Is a kibbutz like a US corporation in its ownership of land, or is it like US Public Lands?
Can foreigners own land in Israel? (If the answer is no, perhaps before getting all shocked one should reflect on the fact that this is so in many countries; I believe it is true in Mexico, and I read in this month’s ** Worth **
magazine that it is illegal now in Australia)
What is current law in West Bank and Gaza; do private individuals own the land, in theory if not in practice?
Doug-the-erstwhile-land-redistributor
I wish I could answer you point by point, but I am at work, and my reference material is at home (I prefer paper to the computer screen).
I would suggest, though, you check out: http://www.mediareviewnet.com/JewsForJustice.htm - the ownership of land is a large part of the current conflict and this site is a good starting point for understanding some of the issues.
The link Bagkitty posted is better than many I have seen posted on this board. At the very least it lists it sources and seems to quote both sides to make its points. I do have a serious problem with claims that accuse Arabs of “inherent anti-Semitism”, but the authors explain that such is not their position. Those with even the barest shreds of knowledge know that Arabs are Semites, and for pro-Jewish propagandists to throw the term “Anti-Semitic” at Arabs just smacks of coordinated exclusion.
djbdjb first I will ask what kind of “unbiased” material are you looking for? The kind that condemns all Palestinians as fundamentalist terrorists who deserve to be removed? I caution you to proceed with care when making such statements:
My numbering. I have a hard time taking these assertions for granted, and I suggest you revise them.
[1] The Israeli problem has seen thoroughly unethical behaviour on both the Israeli and Palestinian sides, with the main difference that Israel is an advanced state with laws, infrastructure, and militia and the Palestinians are rag-tag bands of rebels with little organization or jurisdiction. Please don’t spread more of the “innocent Jews under attack” nonsense or those from the opposite camp will simply spread more “innocent Palestinians under attack” nonsense and that takes us nowhere. Please provide evidence for your claim that Israel has acted ethically when confronted with the Palestinian extremists. I am aware of no evidence in favour for your claim, but I would like to see it if it exists.
[2] The “irrational, fanatical extremists” among the Palestinians are a minority. Yes, there are cultural hatreds between Jews and Palestinians, but nothing that a careful bilateral program of education will not correct over a few decades. The irrational, fanatical extremists do not reside solely among the Palestinians, but also among the Israelis.
“Those who dance with joy at the news of the WTC bombings” – what on earth is this supposed to mean? Don’t you think you are guilty of judging an entire people based on the actions of a very few? The footage you saw on CNN consisted of a small group of perhaps 10 Palestinians. I don’t even know if that footage was current or was an archive as has been claimed elsewhere on this board. Based on the actions of no more than 10 people you choose to condemn all Palestinians as extremists?
Extremists exist everywhere. You have plenty of them in the US, some across Europe, and quite a few in Asutralia, just as you have them in Israel and Palestine and everywhere else.
mea freakin’ culpa… you obvious wanted one which conformed with the official party line… how silly of me to assume you might be interested in one that tried to address the mythology that has grown up around the state of Israel.
Ah yes, the Official Party Line. I heard that the Israeli Government has been trying put one together, but it’s been tied up in committee for 53 years running.
What “Official Party Line”? Likud? Labour? Settlers? Peace Now? Nationalistic-Religious? Ultra-Orthodox? Left-Wing Intellectual? These are Israelis you’re talking about - the most argumentative people on the face of the planet! For fuck’s sake, we’re so opinionated, we make you Americans look like Moonies!
Don’t you go quoting Herzl on me - this isn’t 1895. Benjamin Ze’ev (Theodore) Herzl was a visionary, a true Great Man, but he was also somewhat naive (as were most 19th century European intellectuals) and in certain cases plain wrong. Yes, the earliest Zionists basicaly followed his lead - it was a much more idealistic, desparate time - but most of their modern counterparts see his work not as canon but as a seed of a good idea. The line you quoted is considered by most Israelis in the Left and Center as being an unfortunate product of its time.
As for “purity of arms” - explain. The only time I’ve encountered the term was as a military ideal, of the type that is tought to every soldier in most civilized armies, but is mostly unachieveable in actual warfare.
And as a Brit, I think you should think long and hard about your nation’s responsibility for the mess we’re having back home.
A somewhat related question along the same lines – how do Israelis afford to live there? I’ve seen real estate Web sites for Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, and prices for condominiums and townhouses are astronomically expensive. It seems like the cost of housing in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv are pretty close to what you would find in New York City, and only slightly less expensive than San Francisco.
I think your reaction borders on facile, perhaps I am wrong. I guess I should give you the benefit of the doubt. Let me explain: the average North American (and by the way, I am Canadian, not British) has a remarkably limited knowledge of the history of Israel, Palestine, indeed the entire area. Most seem to believe that Israel’s legitimacy as a state comes from the Bible, rather than UN resolutions. Most don’t realize the settlements on occupied territories are a flagrant violation of international law. Most don’t realize that the Jewish National Fund lands categorically exclude ownership being transferred to non-Jews (as to whether the JNF is, as some suggest, a “quasi-governmental agency” or not is a debate I don’t want to get into)… the list goes on, and on, and on. Unlike Israel (which, for whatever its faults, has what must be the most diverse, honest and self-critical press in the world), the North American press pussy foots around anything regarding what is happening in the Middle East, preferring to play up the myths and stereotypes. Everything here is Israel good, Palestine bad, no history, no context, no questioning. Assuming, of course, the average North American even reads that part of the paper (hey, what is this crap, where is the sports page…)
So, someone asked for information concerning land ownership, I posted the site that I did (I would have posted the Jewish National Fund site, but how many advertisements for planting trees do we really need?).
As for the purity of arms comment, I had just finished arguing with someone about Sabra and Shatila and was in a pissy mood.
I learn so damned much on GD, reading opposing views by intelligent people. It is so refreshing to encounter people who enjoy using their brains, and who willingly expend significant energy to better understand critical issues. Best of all, many posters recognize their own “flaws”, are willing to consider viewpoints in conflict with their own, and are full of “piss and vinegar” (got lotsa spunk). Sorry for the aside, but the back-and-forth of this thread inspired me!