Israeli Terrorism, Have The Abused Become the Abusers?

Israeli brutality in the occupied territories is finally beginning to make it into the American press:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3878-2003Jan2.html

but not nearly as much as it should. Israel’s human rights record is lousy, as recorded by Amnesty International and other human rights groups:

http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/mde/israel+and+the+occupied+territories+!Open

Meanwhile the US is asked to give Israel billions of dollars. We ought to say no, until Israel cleans up it’s act.

They always seem to leave out “oh yea, the kid was waving his gun in the air running at the soldier when he was shot”, or “oh yea, the guy was killed during a riot as he smashed windows and threw rocks at armed soldiers”.

I won’t doubt that Israel could improve their treatment of Palestinians , but sometimes the truth is concealed to make Israel look bad. If we were in the West Bank right now, I doubt we’d see tanks launching shells into Palestinian houses, soldiers sniping everyone who goes outside, and Israelis running the streets slaughtering Palestinians with machetes. It just isn’t like that. And unfortunatly, sometimes it’s portrayed just that way.

If this “lottery” thing is true (as they really just pick random people off the street and bludgeon them) then I have a problem with that. I don’t think Israel has made a statement on those accusitions, unfortunatly.

So how long have you spent in the West Bank, then? In fact, people who have actually been there report these exact things happening, and worse, although the IDF doesn’t have to slaughter Palestinians with machetes. They have the most sophisticated weaponry on Earth, courtesy of the U.S. taxpayer, so they can slaughter from afar.

Also, far from things being portrayed to make Israel look bad, the western press, in particular the U.S. press bends over backward to make Israel look good, and lies continuously about what is happening. In what has to be a unique situation in history, you actually get a much more critical view about what Israel is doing from the Israeli press than you do in the U.S. press. Check out Ha’aretz, for example, and compare to CNN:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/

Whoever wrote that Washington Post editorial (“THERE HAS BEEN a lull recently in Palestinian attacks against Israelis…”) obviously didn’t read their own paper the day before.

Abused? Check out the backgrounds of people such as Begin, Sharon, and the like. Jews had used terrorism to establish Israel and haven’t stopped.

Here we go again.

(See the recent thread on “Palestinian children” http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=152838)

I’ll listen to the sob story about the underreporting of Israeli abuses when Palestinian human rights abuses get the headlines they should. Let us compare Amnesty International’s assessment of Israel to its assessment of the PA:

http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.n...ES?OpenDocument

Nothing to be proud of. Ha’Aretz and Israeli human rights groups are right to call upon their government to do better. To do everything in their power to hold their government to appropriate standards. Just like the American press would be correct in being critical of human rights abuses by American forces as we try to combat terror.

How about the PA?
http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.n...TY?OpenDocument

And what does Human Rights Watch say about the PA?
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/pa/

(Not to mention what HRW calls a “crime against humanity”, terrorist bombing targetted at civilians.) Funny, no calls in Arab press for improvement. No headlines about these abuses in The Washington Post. Interesting that.

Now to that “Jews” using “terrorism to establish Israel”. True enough there were terrorist groups in the days of Israel’s formation. The Stern gang was a bunch of criminal thugs, similar to those allied with the PA, and targeted civilians just as those affiliated with the PA do. Irgun also employed terror tactics although unlike those affiliated with the PA aimed for military targets. Both were effectively squashed by Ben Gurion’s leadership. Unlike Arafat, Israeli leadership condemned and controlled those who would utilize terror within their ranks.

And if you really need cites again about how Arab terror against Jews in Israel/Palestine predate even the formation of Israel I would be happy to once again oblige.

I was referring to Jews in general: abused in Europe and then in 1948 and beyond they . . .

“I’ll listen to the sob story about the underreporting of Israeli abuses when Palestinian human rights abuses get the headlines they should.”

We hear all the time about the suicide bombings and nothing at all about IDF murders or that more Palestinians have been killed than Israelis. Then the American people are asked to pony up $12 billion more for Israel. I think you’re complaint is a red herring.

Of course, you wouldn’t want to condemn the PALESTIAN murderers, would you?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=578&e=2&cid=578&u=/nm/20030105/ts_nm/mideast_explosion_dc

Also may I point out, from your post:

Big difference, and I don’t know where the 300 comes from. According to the article I cite in the OP, 2000 Palestinians were killed over a 15 month period by the IDF.

Who are you talking to milroy? If your talking to me, of course I condemn the Hamas murderers.

aaaphen256

You picked a really good day to launch this one. Try telling your story to the 23 dead innocent civilians - are they listening? Tell it to the hundred or so in hospital (and all the families of the dead and wounded).

On another day, I may have been tempted, like DSeid, to take you to tak over your horrible posting, but in view of the obvious viciou slant that your OP wording reveals about you, you can go to hell with the murderers who did this.

Or trying telling that to the 50 Palestinians killed in the last month or the Palestinian man who was beaten to death, etc, etc. :rolleyes:

The attack today was an atrocity but it attacks like this don’t excuse the occupation or Israeli state terrorism or allow you to ignore it.

Should we make a boilerplate for every post that says “I condemn all acts of violence against innocent peoples, but I must comment on the following:”

Because jumping to the conclusion that the OP condones the recent terrorist suicide bombings because he condemns the Israeli terrorist actions against the Palestinians is a bit of a strawman.

TwistofFate
How about you make a boilerplate that says “I condemn all acts of violence against innocent people”. No buts, no ifs, no exceptions.

I’ll sign that one - will aaaphen256?

Just a brief comment (my first here). For twenty of my twenty-five years on this planet I have lived in the Republic of Ireland. I watch the news, I read papers daily, I have listened to arguments on both sides and still don’t have much of a clue how the problem can be solved or worked through - you are talking about generations of hatred -Its bloody complicated!

I know even less about Israel and Palestine - but even a little research will wield much evidence showing that Israel has consistently committed dire acts contravening human rights and is blatantly operating a system of apartheid in which Palestinians are living as second-class citizens.
I don’t believe in partisan politics- killing inevitably leads to more killing - but it’s easy to see why the Palestinians are pissed off. America needs to stop funding Israel’s state sponsored terrorism - and Americans (though I fear I may be preaching to the converted here) need to start checking out their facts before happily sending their tax dollars to fund wars that are quite frankly none of their business.
I once had a discussion with a girl from NJ whose vast knowledge on the political situation in Ireland became apparent when she said “ohhh I know all about the North of Ireland and the IRS”

There is always more to the picture. If you live in America don’t trust the American press to inform you correctly, do a little research -the BBC archives for example - or any European papers you can find (or understand) online - and share them with your friends - and discuss them - form opinions rather than just accepting them. And America better start getting itself informed pretty soon - because if people accept being spoon-fed by corrupt media, if they stop questioning and debating and get swept up in a wave of hatred and extreme nationalism as seems to be happening at the moment - well god (or some other significant higher being) help us all - because I think I may fear Bush more than Hitler…

Shine!
SX

SalomeX

Why don’t you read your own post

How true!

Do you hear yourself anywhere in there?

You picked some real good ones there - the BBC has been selected for two years running as the most biased media site in the world when it comes to Israel. To give an example that may have some sense to you - the IRA are called “terrorists”, Hamas and the rest of the murderes are called “freedom fighters”. And Europe, of course : the epitome of even-handedness. Where do you think the PLO’s money comes from? Where has there been a peak of anti-Semitic attacks in 2002? Mexico? Australia? France? - you choose.

Basically, everything you said besides “don’t have much of a clue” is pure bullshit. That bit was a gem, but.

Blah Blah Blah.

My news source is less bias than yours / My country is less fucked up than yours / My murdering bastard is a nicer murdering bastard than yours AAARRRRGGGGGHHHH

rampisad do you actually WATCH the BBC?

Of course, this includes (in addition to the civilians you seem to imply):

  1. terrorists killed by the IDF
  2. gunmen engaged in inidivudal firefights with IDF forces
  3. suicide bombers who die when they commit their atrocities
  4. people who planned to be suicide bombers, or abet said people, but died when they blew themselves up in “work accidents”
  5. Palestinian human shields purposefully brought in by Palestianian terrorists to create newspaper headlines about the IDF killing civilians

So it’s not as simple as your idiotic body count. This is especially true because the IDF stops about 90-95% of planned terrorist attacks. There have “only” been 700 Israelis killed because the Israelis are good at what they do.

Does that mean the Israelis are perfect? No, they have undoubtedly committed human rights violations, just as every other motherfucking country in the world has. These are morally unacceptable, but they are criticized constantly, perhaps most of all within the Israeli press (have you ever read Ha’Aretz?). The difference is that the Israeli side will correct its own errors - in fact, fairly consistently considers them errors - whereas little such self-criticism takes place on the Palestinian side. Even the letter signed by 55 Palestinian intellectuals last year, which called for an end to suicide bombings inside the Green Line, did so only because such tactics were self-defeating, not immoral. When Israeli terrorists hurt Palestinians, they are given trials and put in jail if they are guilty. When Palestinian terrorists hurt Israelis, they are sometimes put in jail (without a trial of course) by the PA if the political pressure is on, then quietly released when the pressure dies down. The deaths of civilians move one side to investigations, the other side to celebrations. I’ll give you a guess which is which.