I high lighted a very interesting idea monstro brings up.
I’ve always thought that the smartest thing the Palestinians could do is to organize themselves into a peaceful community. Take what resources they have to create jobs and business. Start trading goods and services with Israel and other countries.
Israel would have no excuses to continue any harsh treatment or sanctions. Gradually control over Gaza would pass to the Palestinians. It would be a process, building trust on both sides takes time. Then serious talks about full autonomy could begin.
Hamas is the problem. They will never allow that to happen. I don’t see any solution with them blocking the peace process.
I answered both, but your question is deeply flawed.
Hamas is the “bad guy”, and do not represent all Palestinians. That they were elected to power in Gaza is deeply disturbing, but they have an extremely effective propaganda machine.
The issue is that every few years, Hamas starts firing rockets into Israel. Israel has an advanced anti-missile defense system, so most rockets are intercepted. Israel then attempts to target Hamas missile and weapon’s stockpiles. Hamas, being motivated by true humanitarian concerns, stores its weapons in schools and hospitals.
Israel warns civilians to evacuate, but Hamas, tells them to stay put. Israel then ends up killing civilians in its provoked counter attack, and Hamas spins this as unjust Israeli aggression.
Hamas then demands concessions, Israel occasionally grants them, and then Hamas spits in their face and starts firing rockets again. Israel then shuts down the borders and strictly limits trade, so that no new rockets are imported, and Hamas spins this as oppression.
The only bad guys are Hamas. Can you really imagine a First World nation today attacking a Third World, completely unprovoked?
Again, this is similar to referring to Americans as “Republicans” every time a Republican wins an election. In fact, it’s probably actually LESS accurate, since Hamas did not get a majority of the vote, and got a plurality just in Gaza, which is half the population of Palestinians.
No. But if Obama was a known terrorist who was hell bent on starting wars with our stronger neighbors I would expect to get bombed occasionally because we elected him.
Other than that little thing the analogy is perfect.
I new someone would be snarky and post the Iraq War. The difference is that Saddam Hussein was far from innocent by any standard, and actively tried to convince the world he had weapons of mass destruction (right up until this bit him in the ass). His act was pretty convincing, too, considering that he had in fact gassed his own people in the past.
Again, Hamas STORES ITS WEAPONS in SCHOOLS AND HOSPITALS.
Israels sends warnings to the civilians, ordering them to evacuate, but Hamas (which controls the government) counters and orders the civilians to stay. Thus civilians are slaughtered by Israeli counter measures because their government told them to stay put.
It’s staggering that you can’t see the difference between:
Israeli soldiers who aim at terrorists shooting missiles,
and (in your words) evil , rocket-toting terrorists who shoot their missiles from schools, aiming only at Israeli civilians.
The poiltical situation is complex., the history is complicated and hard to understand.
But this war is not complex, and not at all difficult to understand.
It is black and white.
Good vs Evil.
Of course, the Israelis want to live in peace on land the stole from others, but that’s OK because those others are bad guys.
A lot of the Palestinians left what became Israel because they were encouraged to do so by Arabs and Egypt. Many were forced out at gunpoint by Israelis (though this fact is not taught in Israeli schools). Regardless of their reason for leaving, they were not permitted back in, because Israel wanted to be a democracy, but not an Arab one. Well, they’ll end up being one anyway, thanks to demographics. (More accurately: they’re currently a Jewish democracy. Due to changing demographics, they’ll have to give up one or the other.)
Well put.
Me too. As the bad old joke went, “Why can’t the Jews and Arabs all just get along like good Christians?”
And silly us for falling for it. Note that while everyone suspected Iraq of having WMD, nobody knew that well enough to invade except the US and Great Britain. Bush set us up for the retort above, and we earned it. You asked, Rick answered. Perhaps Iraq wasn’t “completely unprovoked” but it certainly wasn’t sufficiently provocative. But gee, it sure turned out well in the long run.
Name one country that’s “far from innocent by any standard”. Switzerland, perhaps? Oops, nope. I’m sure there are some, but Israel sure isn’t one. Palestine certainly isn’t.
Anyone pointing fingers at only one side isn’t seeing things clearly.
Uh huh. And other than the fact that, were Obama a terrorist, it still wouldn’t make you a terrorist, you might have a point. But you don’t. To say the Palestinians are a terrorist organization is like saying Iraq is a terrorist organization. Let’s not double-down on the stupid.
He’s got a point, Israel claims to be a democracy and also has National Service, so all people could be seen as adjuncts of the military, and therefore all Israelis are partly responsible for the actions of their government and their military. And, given what those actions are, deserve to die.
On the other hand, the Palestinians didn’t even give Hamas a majority in Gaza and, according to Israel’s mouthpieces, Hamas are stopping the Palestinians from leaving areas that are about to be attacked, Hamas are storing weapons in schools, Hamas are using human shields and so on, which really absolves the Palestinians of any responsibility for Hamas’ actions.
No, Israel is the problem. You see, Palestine doesn’t actually have anything to trade. True, some of their labour is used in Israel, but that’s it. Most of their water resources have been appropriated by Israel, the best land is occupied by Israeli settlements, the other natural resources, like Gaza’s gas, are controlled by Israel. Even the borders are controlled by Israel, so no maquilladora-style free trade zones. The Gazans are blockaded and barely capable of importing enough food to survive and subject to bans on apparently random things, like cinnamon, imposed by the Israelis, and have no reliable electricity supply.
All of this is under the control of Israel. Take it up with them.
At around the same time, plus/minus a couple of years, 18 million Hindus and Muslims were forced out at gun point or were encouraged to do so - between India and Pakistan. At around the same time, plus/minus a couple of years, 13 million ethnic Germans were expelled from land on which they lived for centuries - at gunpoint. And around 700K Jews were expelled from Arab countries.
Neither of those populations are “refugees” anymore and were not “refugees” for more than a few years.
Yet the 700K or so Palestinians that were expelled are still “refugees” 60+ years after the event and have now produced 5M “refugees”. And there is a UN agency that is created ONLY to take care of them. No other refugees ever rated that.
It seems like an odd mindset where “we won’t steal any more of your land” is seen as a compromise. Especially seeing as they didn’t stick to that offer.
A real compromise would be to offer to evacuate all of those illegal settlements to allow a territorially contiguous West Bank. But the Israelis will never, ever agree to that.
Of course a third of the population of Palestine was Christian at the time of the Naqba, which is now down to a tenth due to the combined baleful influences of the Jewish state and the Islamic fundamentalists.
With unlimited trade and free movement, Hamas buys weapons and shoots at Israel. Hamas is screwing over the Palestinians, and nobody seems willing to admit they are the primary problem.
Apparently, it is not taught in Western schools that nearly exactly the same number of Jews - 700K - were forced out of the other countries in the ME and into Israel.
Apparently, they are now the “bad guys” for living on “stolen land”.
It isn’t as if this sort of thing hasn’t happened elsewhere - India and Pakistan springs to mind, as it occurred at exactly the same time - but few claim that India and/or Pakistan are “bad guys” for living on “stolen land”.
Nor is Poland considered a “bad guy” for having “stolen” German land after WW2 - despite the terrible expulsion of ethnic Germans and movement of the border 100K to the West.
What is the difference between these scenarios and Israel/Palestine? The fact that the Palestinians who left - either voluntary or forced - are still, nearly 70 years later, “refugees”. Their Arab bretheren, so eager to support their rights, have refused to take them in.
I see this statement about demographic inevitability made all the time, but the proof for it appears to be lacking.
The reasons Israelis do not want to “let in” Palestinians en mass appear pretty obvious: they are, to a large extent, hostile to the state, after nearly 70 years of conflict.