For myself, I would not characterize either Israelis or Palestinians “as a people” as either good guys or bad guys. Both are caught in an unfortunate situation that has deep historical roots and is not wholly of their making. The Palestinains have got the worse of the deal, obviously enough.
I don’t find any of these examples analogous.
I don’t have a problem with the Jews who were forcefully removed from their land reclaiming “their” land. I don’t even have a problem with their direct descendants reclaiming their direct ancestor’s land. I DO have a problem with a guy born and raised in New Jersey, who is separated from the land by thousands of years, believing he has more claim to that land than a guy who has never lived anywhere else, nor his father, or his father.
That would be like me, a member of the African diaspora, claiming acreage in Nigeria. I can make it my land if I am assertive enough and find enough friends to back me up, and just hope that no one cares enough to argue with me about it. But the people who I’ve displaced are not obligated to respect my claim that the land was my natural inheritance. Hell, with that logic, a mutt like me could claim half the world as her homeland.
Let’s stop with the bullshit rhetoric and be honest. The reason Israel does not want Palestinians to become Israeli citizens is that the goal has always been a JEWISH state. An Arab Muslim majority does not jibe with this dream.
Personally, I find this unpalatable because I don’t like the idea of a person being automatically favored over another based on their bloodline or religious belief. But apparently this is the minority view. I’m fine not getting worked up about it and keeping my opinion to myself (most of the time). But I’m also not going to sugarcoat the truth. Israel is not a “we-are-the-world” type of place. They are actively cultivating a citizenry that fits a very narrow profile. If any other place in the world were doing the same thing, we’d all be bothered by it.
The Palestinians are not irrational in their rage. This is the kind of bullshit I’m sick of hearing. I would probably want to blow up the country that has displaced me and my family and continues to do so even when it says it wants peace. But just because their rage is completely understandable doesn’t give them license to self-destruct. I understand their sadness and pain and anger much more than I understand the average Israeli’s sadness and pain and anger. But I also know that sadness and pain and anger don’t entitle you to anything in this world. It doesn’t feed anyone. It doesn’t build schools and universities. It doesn’t advance society. It just results in more killing. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting the sadness and pain to go away. Their rage is not irrational, but their actions are. So that’s why they are the “bad guys”.
But irrational behavior doesn’t exist in a vaccuum. So Israel is a goddamned bastard too.
IMHO.
The reason the modern state of Israel was created is because people were automatically disfavored based on their bloodlines and/or religious beliefs, to the point of millions of them killed for no reason other than being Jewish. Given that Arab Muslims as a whole seem all too ready to continue in that vein, I see finding fault with Israel over being selective about whom they accept as citizens to be rather disingenuous.
So immigrants should have no rights? Blood should be tied to soil?
As of NOW, the vast majority of Israelis were BORN there.
Let’s stop with the bullshit rhetoric and be honest. The reason Israel does not want Palestinians [from the WB or Gaza] being Israeli citizens is that, rightly or wrongly - and it doesn’t matter which - they are PISSED at the currently-existing Israeli citizens, and so would make bad neighbours and bad citizens.
Leaving aside whether Israelis “deserve” Hamas, would yoiu want them moving in next door to YOU? I thought not.
… but above, you just finished telling us all the opposite.
Your quote:
What’s all this “his father or hsi father” being better than “the guy from New Jersey” stuff, if you "… don’t like the idea of a person being automatically favored over another based on their bloodline "?
Well, except for the 20% of its citizens who are Arabs. I suppose they “don’t count”.
You have just eloquently described WHY the average Israeli would have to have rocks in their head if they allowed these guys into the country as citizens.
Might makes right. Palestinians are a victim of European colonialism. Hey, who ain’t? Get in line. They and their friends thought they could kick the Jews out. They were wrong. At some point they have to realize they’ve been totally defeated and get over it, like the Native Americans.
Honest question.
Were they trying to kill Jews before or after the creation of the Israel state? Because it is understanding that Jews and Arab Muslims were doing fine pretty much before all of this “this is MY homeland!” shit started.
It certainly goes back before 1948. There was Muslim militant activity against Jews in the Holy Land, notably during WWII. The Mufti of Jerusalem was particularly emphatic in leading this kind of violence.
But half of them are of European extraction, correct? Most of them are either second or third generation, true. But it is not true that most of Israelis are recently descended from Palestinian Jews. So when you say that Jews have always lived there, that is very much true. But a large percentage of Israelis do not have roots in the area like the Palestinians do.
Are the vast majority of illegal settlers natural born? Honest question. I’m genuinely curious because I don’t know the answer and I’m looking to be informed.
Do you disagree that Israel wants a Jewish state? And that a citizenry comprised of an Arab Muslim majority isn’t consistent with this desire?
Where in the hell did I say Israel deserves Hamas? Please don’t put words in my mouth.
No, I don’t want Hamas living next door to me. But then again, I wouldn’t put myself in a situation where Hamas would be living next door to me. And if Hamas just showed up one day and started lobbing rockets at me, I’d have to wonder why. Is it mere jealousy? Rabid racism or nationalism? Or is my government implementing policies that ensures there will always be a crazy neighbor lobbing rockets at me?
I can understand familial inheritance because I’m not an idiot. If someone’s grandfather owned property, it is not hard to argue that his grandchildren are entitled to that property.
But there becomes a point when it becomes utter nonsense. My distant West African mDNA does not entitle me to land in Nigeria. The argument that I should get to live there because my great-great-great-grandfather lived there is a straight-up CRAZY argument.
However, an argument that simply says, “Well, people fought for that land and they won it fair and square. And they invited me to share it with them.” That’s different. I can respect that. But I can’t respect all the bullshit about whose ancestors lived where.
I find this explanation to work pretty well: YouTube Link
20 years before the creation of the “Israel state”.
Asking about “illegal settlers” is poisoning the well. Why don’t you ask it correctly and you may get the answer.
There’s no pointing engaging me if we can’t even agree on something as basic as this.
I guess you won’t get an answer then.
Your link wasn’t working for me. In case it isn’t for anyone else, here’s what I think you wanted to link to.
Not my point. I mean that most of the individual Israelis living in Israel right now were born there.
Are you of the opinion that it is right and proper to make distinctions in citizenship rights between people whose forefathers were immigrants, and those whose forefathers (well, foreparents) were not?
I do not know. Wiki simply states as follows:
The difficulty, as you may or may not know, is that certain areas are defined as “illegal settlements” that are, by any ordinary definition, considered “part of the city of Jerusalem”. So someone moving from one neighbourhood to another in their own country’s capital city become defined as an “illegal settler”.
No … but that is not why Israelis do not want people from Gaza or the WB to become citizens. If it was, they would be busy denying citizenship to their existing Arab population. The reason is more straightforward: a desire to keep acknowledged enemies out.
Do you want to know what motivates Hamas? Don’t ask me, I’m not a Hamas member. Instead, read the Hamas Charter, which spells out very clearly what motivates Hamas.
Here is a link:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
Hamas on what to do with Jews:
Hamas on teaching women:
Hamas on peace and negotiations:
These, to remind you, are some of the folks you wish to make citizens of Israel. Do you wonder that Israelis are not keen on that particular idea?
We are not talking about ownership of property, but of citizenship in a nation. If someone’s grandfather lived in a nation, does that give that person superior rights of citizenship to someone whose father was an immigrant?
That isn’t the basis of the claim of present-day israelis to live in Israel. It may have motivated some of their ancestors to move there - more (far more) were motivated to move there because of unfortunate events in Europe and the Middle East, events that made living in those places untenable.
For example, the most recent-bar-one mass migration to Israel was of African Jews from Etheopia - people who probably only HEARD of the (modern nation) of Israel. They did not move there for reasons of religious ancestry, but because, in their homeland, they faced death.
The reason why Israelis justify their existence in Israel is the exact same as the reason why Americans justify their existence in America - that is their country, where they happen to live. The notion that they are a “colonial implantation” is nonsense - as they have no “metropolitan” country to return to.
But it is you, and not me, who is making the “someone’s ancestor lived where” argument!