And I’ve yet to hear how this will do anything but the opposite.
I had just assumed that Hezbollah were firing rockets from civilian areas, school grounds, hospitals etc., for the reason you stated. But you have made me think - is this actually the case?
Does anyone know if rockets are/were being launched from populated civilian locations? (not rhetorical, a real question)
Ah, so now killing Jewish people is no worse than minor vandalism.
:rolleyes: I was making a point about disproportionality, not on the value of Jewish lives, as I’m sure you are quite aware. The Israelis are so far in the wrong that their defenders feel it necessary to obsessively accuse all who criticise them of anti-semitiism.
Ah, so now you are suggesting that Hezbollah are all teenagers?
Right. I’m saying that Israel is implementing a “measured response”.
The response is also disproportionate to the recent border skirmishes, but not (I maintain) to the underlying strategic situation.
A nonmeasured response would attempt to destroy Hezbollah, “Once and for all”. That would be either barbarism or more likely fantasy.
I might add my uninformed doubts that the Lebonese army (or the UN for that matter) has the capacity to curb Hezbollah at the moment. So any solution will probably involve the EU.
This newspaper article refers to suburban Lebonese civilians killed while the IDF was bombing Hezbollah missile batteries: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/738699.html
No, I’m accusing you of anti-Semitism because if the shoe fits, you may as well wear it.
Let us be perfectly and honestly frank about this; the situation Israel is in would not be permitted to exist if it was any other state on the planet. If Belgium were regularly attacked by guerrillas operating out of the Netherlands, in defiance of U.N. resolutions, for years on end, there is no way the rest of the world would allow this to happen. It is utterly inconceivable that, if a terrorist group with ties to the government operating out of Argentina were to spend years killing Brazilian citizens and building up the capacity to build more, and Brazil sat and took it for years and asked them to stop, and finally said “I’m sorry, but it’s been years now and you’ve broked your word, and are still killing our people, and so we must now use force” the world would not be supportive of Brazil.
Only Israel is held to the standard that they are not allowed to use force against those who use force against them. And the reason is really quite simple; they’re Jews. It’s not that Israel is some evil dictatorship attacking free democracies. There’s over 200 sovereign nations in the world and if ANY of them were incessantly attacked by one of their neighbours, the world would completely expect them to fight back, and as bad as 300-400 civilian casualties are, most nations would kill far more; shit, the Americans killed ten times that many in a couple of weeks in 2003.
You keep saying the Israelis are trying to kill civilians, but of course, that’s a rather obvious lie. A modern, capable army could kill a hell of a lot more civilians than this if they were trying to. 300-400 is what you kill when you’re NOT trying to; if they wanted to they’d have killed twenty thousand people by now, maybe more.
Nope, I’m sorry, but the overwhelming evidence is that Israel is treated this way because they’re Jews. Nobody else is continually attacked by their neighbours and told not to respond. Nobody else is told the existence of their country is “a form of racism.” Nobody else has other countries openly trying to murder its civilians while the rest of the world turns a blind eye and does nothing. Just the Jewish country. Coincidence? I think not.
I don’t know who is holding them to that standard, but feel free to point them out so that I might chastise them with you. My personal stance is that they can completely eliminate Hezbollah, but doing so at the cost of lives of numerous innocents isn’t something I find justifiable.
This is just about the stupidest shit I’ve seen in this forum in a long time, and I’ve read TheFonz’s OPs. While we have had a handful over the years, I’m not aware of a single person currently a member on this board who can be unquestionably called anti-semitic.
I fully expect them to fight back. As I said, eliminate Hezbollah without all of the civilian casualties, and no one that I know of will have a problem.
Well that makes it okay then. Israel’s also not done yet. How high does the number have to be before you find it unacceptable? A thousand, ten thousand, 3.8 million? By the way, using the U.S.'s actions in Iraq as some sort of moral compass isn’t going to win most of us over. Hell, we had zero reason to kill those civilians.
I don’t think the existence of the country is racism. I do think that those attempting to make Jewish-only settlements, as well as those who treat your Arab citizens as second-class citizens are racists, though.
Can you provide a means of eliminating Hezbollah that you would support? Because, as they make their bases in civilian areas, it would seem that -any- attempt to deal with them will cost the lives of numerous innocents.
How is your forumulation that they can deal with Hezbollah but not harm innocents any different from saying that they cannot deal with Hezbollah?
Israel’s tactics aren’t that hard to understand. They operate in a classic “tit for tat” strategy that has been shown to be the most effective way to deal with these types of situations. “Tit for tat” is a game theory stratgey where you respond to another person or entity as they respond to you-- you meet peace with peace and war with war. Any Arab country (or any country for that matter) which wants peace with Israel can have it. Problem is, there are some countries (and some organizations) that don’t want peace-- they want to eliminate Israel. There is no way to compromise with someone who wants to kill you.
So, Israel tries to work thru the UN as much as possible in getting resolutions like 1559 passed. But then nothing happens, and organizations like Hezbollah build up extra-governmental militias. This latest effort is Israel’s way of showing Lebanon that it is in its own interest to clean up its southern areas. You don’t want your airport bombed? Easy, don’t let Hezbollah use them to transport missiles in from Syria/Iran. You throw a bomb at them, they throw three back-- immediately. You don’t throw any bombs at them (or otherwise take military action against them), they don’t throw any at you.
The Israelis are smart about this. They don’t go to total war, and always have a measured response. We may not all agree that the measure is perfect, but frankly, they are a better judge of that. They know they can’t eliminate Hezbollah, but they know they can set it back a few years and try to get the Lebanese government to do what it should have done years ago.
Sure, mix and match at your leisure:
- Work closely with Lebanon to root out Hezbollah as a police action.
- Help equip the Lebanese Army with the tools to do the job themselves.
- Help ensure that Lebanon is prosperous enough that the pool of potential recruits remains small.
- In all actions, remain the “good guy”, thus limiting the moral support that groups such as Hezbollah receive from the Arab world.
- Either prove that the Lebanese government is actually behind this attack, or stop accusing them of such. Providing arms in the past doesn’t really count, unless you want to blame the U.S. on the actions of the Taliban, Iraq, Iran, etc.
- No matter which action(s) you take, make it very clear (in actions, not words) that you value a Lebanese civilian’s life just as much as an Israelis.
Heck, I have tons of ideas, and could probably brainstorm all day long. Some might work, some might not. None of them will result in the current rate of civilian casualties.
One of them gets a lot of civilians killed. The other doesn’t. That sure seemed like an easy question.
Nonsense; I care nothing about Jewishness; I’m not even mildly curious if someone is a Jew or not. I could be surrounded by Jews, and I wouldn’t know because I’ve never asked. You can’t be anti-Semitic if you don’t even care. Disliking or even hating Israel’s behavior has no automatic connection with antisemitism; it’s a country, not a nation or a race.
They aren’t held to that standard. We would prefer, however, for them to bother to kill their enemies instead of random people.
I hate to break it to you, but not everybody’s view of the world revolves around that. They could be Communists or Catholics or whatever, and it wouldn’t change my view in the slightest.
“Everybody else does it” is not a defense; it’s rather grade schoolish, actually. As for America, it did so because America is at least as terroristic and barbaric.
No, I said they are striking at the civilians, not killing them directly; that would make them look even worse.They don’t want that much blood directly on their hands, and they want to spread terror and suffering more than death; terrorism at it’s best.
Tell it to the Iraqis.
One of them doesn’t actually do anything about stopping Hezbollah, the other does. That, too, is an easy answer.
Lebanon has said it refuses to do that in the past. The only reason Lebanon is even considering it now is because there are actual consequences, only now, to it using a terrorist proxy against Israel.
They have the tools themselves, they choose not to use them and instead to give Hezbollah weapons. Lebanon could’ve asked for help at any point, they haven’t, because they have publically stated that they are using Hezbollah in their war with Israel.
The dispute is over the Shabaa Farms region as well as genocidal ambitions. Prosperity has almost nothing to do with that. In addition, a small pool of potential recruits does not stop the rocket attacks.
Prosperity would reduce the social impact Hezbollah has in the south, but it wouldn’t stop the rocket attacks.
Several Arab states have already condemned Hezbollah.
Lebanon’s own admissions don’t count?
Depends on the timeframe, doesn’t it? One could blame the actions of the Mujhadin on the United States during the Soviet invasion of Afganistan. Likewise, one could blame Iraq’s actions during the Iran/Iraq war on the United States.
As recently as six months ago, the Lebanese Defense Minister, with governmental approval, was shipping weapons to Hezbollah. As of May 29th, of this year, the Lebanese President was saying that Hezbollah was a part and a tool in their war against Israel.
This is hardly far enough in the past as to not qualify.
How exactly would you do this so that it didn’t end up in more Israeli casualties? Why should a country pretend that effectively defending itself from aggression is less important than making sure that the enemy country’s civilians aren’t harmed?
Why should a sovereign government act as if it’s first priority isn’t protecting its own citizens, but in limiting its ability to protect them in order that the nation that attacked them can have their civilians be more secure?
Also, few of them actually deal with stopping Hezbollah (and none of them effectively doing so) and none of them really respond to the clear act of war Lebanon has commited by arming them and declaring them a part of its war against Israel.
By the way, if people don’t like the Israeli media cite, here’s one from the Lebanese Foundation for Peace, confirming the Lebanese government’s actions in helping arm Hezbollah, as well as Lebanon’s statement that Hezbollah is a part of their war against Israel.
It’s hard to see how Lebanon arming Hezbollah and saying that they’re part of their country’s fight against Israel is anything less than an admission of responsibility.
When was the last time they refused to work with Israel to root out Hezbollah as a police action?
How many cites from Israeli sources, stating that the Lebanese army can’t accomplish this, would I need to provide before you’d accept it?
Prosperity (and security) has a lot to do with the recruiting success of a terrorist organization. A smaller pool of recruits certainly makes stopping them easier.
Cite?
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Several Arab states have already condemned Hezbollah.
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Rightfully so in this particular instance. Of course, they might change their minds if this keeps up.
Cite that the Lebanese government is actually behind this attack.
Which was my point.
Cite. I’m aware that the government allowed a shipment to go through, but that’s not the same as shipping them themselves.
Wasn’t that election day? I’ve heard people say such foolish things as “Read my lips. No new taxes.” when it was election time. Most of us take them with a grain of salt.
If you’re expecting for me to say that Lebanon hasn’t paid lip service to Hezbollah supporters, you’ll be waiting a long time. I’m not a fan of killing people for lip service.
I gave plenty of ways, but you don’t like them. I’d come up with more, but it seems like a waste of time with you.
Your actual enemy isn’t a country, but an organization within the country. If the Green Party suddenly started blowing up whaling boats, I wouldn’t expect a Japanese attack on D.C.
FOR THE LAST FUCKING TIME, either prove that Lebanon attacked you, or stop with this B.S.
Of course not attempting them certainly results in Hezbollah carrying on with their business, but to say that none of them would be effective is going to need a cite.
You seem to see this as a black and white issue. Either you let yourself be hit with rockets, doing nothing, or you launch a full attack. Most of us fall somewhere in the middle. I, for example, would have absolutely no problem with Israel putting their entire army on the border to Lebanon, then attempting various diplomatic solutions, even crossing the border to help the Lebanese police or army if they wanted, with a short timeframe for acceptable resolution. I have zero problems with a show of potential force, but killing innocent civilians isn’t winning you any friends.
Oh, I’ll go ahead and ask you what I asked RickJay earlier. At what number does the civilian death toll reach the point where you will think the reaction was too much?
Why would we trust that cite any more than the other ones you offer up, such as IMRA. Citing the LFP regarding the Lebanese is like citing some Florida based Batista supporters when discussing Cuban issues. Many, but not all of your sources, make Fox actually look “Fair and Balanced”.
Much of the Lebanese government would love nothing more than for Hezbollah to move to Syria. I’ll still take that cite that the Lebanese government armed them with those missiles that you’re being hit with.
DMC,
To use your vernacular: HOW MUCH FUCKING PROOF DO YOU NEED?
Past cites have quoted a variety of Lebanese governmental leaders saying that they had no intention of disarming Hezbollah “as long as we continue at war with Israel” (quote from memory). There was NO effort made to disarm the Hezbollah as agreed to and as encouraged by that always biased to Israel body, the UN. Even today, those who argue the Lebanese position speak about Iran and Syria’s armig of Hezbollah as if it is on par with arming the Lebanese army, no more wrong with that than with America arming Israel … a just agument if you accept that Hezbollah was entrusted (foolishly or not) to function as Lebanon’s military regarding Israel.
Oh, but the apologists say those were all just words to cover up the fact that they are afraid to disarm Hezbollah, that the corps within the army wouldn’t comply with going up against fellow Shi’ites. But sure, inviting the dreaded Israelis in to help disarm Hezbollah in joint ventures was what was needed. Oh yeah, that’d go over well … in Bizzaro universe, maybe.
Gawd. The Lebanese government willingly ceded all military matters, from the strategic and operational POVs both, regarding Israel, to Hezbollah. Despite promising that they would disarm them and being reminded of that obligation by UN resolution.
FOR THE LAST FUCKING TIME.
Well said, and in fewer words than I’ve managed to edit my response down to.
I’ve still got a post that I’m busy editing, but now I’m getting a headache. I think that I’m off to dinner and to catch A Scanner Darkly. I’ll probably check back at this thread later tonight or tomorrow.
Have a good night everybody.
It’s a factual claim we’re talking about though, as opposed to a characterization. Anyway, this US News and World Report article opens with the following:
I’m well aware that Lebanon failed to disarm Hezbollah, either willingly or due to not being able to do so, but that’s not the same as being behind the attack. That’s the proof I asked for and have yet to receive.