I acknowledged in my own post that they allowed that shipment to go through. That’s not the same as “shipping weapons to Hezbollah.”
Looks like you are wrong.
I don’t understand your argument antechinus. I claimed that Israel’s response is not disproportionate to the strategic threat posed by 200km missiles.
Your cite does not discuss weaponry; they simply allege (correctly) suffering by Lebonese civilians.
Now I’m less than elated by civilian casualties and bombs that destroy the work of generations. And I am more dismayed about Darfur and the on again, off again Congalese civil war. But again, it doesn’t really address my point.
At any rate, though I commend the “top UN humanitarian official” for doing his job, he is hardly the final authority on this issue.
Those wishing to read an informed argument against the Israeli invasion should check out the Harper’s interview with Wayne White, Deputy Director of the State Department’s Office of Middle East and South Asia Analysis until March 2005.
-------- Mr. White alleges that the Israeli and US government intend to make, “…an effort to destroy Hezbollah, once and for all.”
M4M, who has no expertise on this subject, hopes that Mr. White is overstating the IDF’s ambitions: to think that a guerrilla movement can be eradicated in a few weeks is fantasy.
--------- Mr. White notes that the invasion is counter-productive, as it will generate thousands of additional recruits…
M4M wonders whether this really matters, provided Israel secures all of the following: a) a wall, b) a governmental military force in Southern Lebanon and c) a Hezbollah without (say) 45km+ missiles. (M4M also wonders whether a-c are realistic outcomes).
At any rate, the success of the Bush admin’s hands-off strategy should become clearer in another month or so, for those inclined to view the strategic environment with sharp eyes, as opposed to preconceptions.
With all due respect, your argument is, shall we say, diffuse.
That shipment of 12 trucks, allegedly approved by top Lebanese officials, demonstates complicity with Hezbollah. This isn’t surprising, as Hezbollah has an representative in parlament.
Now, again, I’m not an expert. And I suspect that there are both pro and anti- Hezbollah forces within the Lebanon government. But to blithely shield one’s eyes from evidence of collaboration seems inappropriate.
At the same time, I admit that FinnAgain’s claim, “The Lebanese government attacked Israel via a proxy force…” may be somewhat overstated. But arguably not by a huge margin. At any rate, if the Lebanese government opposes Hezbollah, there should surely be some evidence: why not dig it up yourself?
I didn’t say the government did, I said much of the government did. The government as a whole can’t decide whether to condone or condemn the attacks, and all indications that I’ve seen are they couldn’t stop them, whether they wanted to or not, so they just distance themselves from them. As for proof that some of them do oppose Hezbollah, even former fans of Hezbollah, such as Walid Jumblatt, now think that Hezbollah has taken Lebanon hostage.
Letting 12 truckloads of armaments through customs is not “distancing”. It’s “Active collaboration.” Admittedly, I’d like to know more about the sourcing of this tale.
I suspect that the government is rethinking their stance.
I hasten to note though that the 12 truck shipment occurred in January. Public and official opinion has assuredly shifted since then.
Following antechinus, the “French Defense Minister Michele Alliot-Marie on Sunday questioned the “point” of some Israeli bombing targets in Lebanon.” Specifically she wondered why [ul]
[li]the main Lebanese military barracks[/li][li]factories that produce powdered milk for infants[/li][li]and convoys of civilians[/li][/ul]were having bombs dropped on them.
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=74181
Are the Israeli’s doing this intentionally? What’s really going on there? Beats me.
You know, every time an Arab country is bombed, there’s a claim that one of the things bombed was a ‘milk factory’. In the first Gulf war, I remember a lot of press about a milk factory being hit - only it turned out of course not to be. I’m pretty sure I recall claims of a milk factory being hit either in Afghanistan or the last Iraq war this time around. And now we have the Israelis hitting another milk factory.
Does anyone have the scoop on this? In Arab culture, is there something especially important about the symbolism of milk that would cause them to claim that milk factories are being hit? Or perhaps are they storing milk in buildings that hold weapons, so that if the building is hit they can make the claim that it was a milk factory?
Because it makes no sense that Israel would go out of its way to bomb milk factories, since that’s about the worst PR you could hope for and the most disconnected product from the enemy’s military. They might as well just target children’s hospitals.
It is not my argument. It is a first-hand observation by an independant expert witness of the situation on the ground.
Jan Egeland, the top UN humanitarian offical, observed that the Israeli response was disproportionate to the whole strategic situation. He stated that “Israel is violating humanitarian law”. Thus it is more than simply killing innocent humans, it is doing so in a way where the harm outweighs military advantage.
Also shows that Weirddave is wrong.
The British Broadcasting Corp. (BBC) has admitted that many of the victims of Israeli retaliation in Lebanon are terrorists and not innocent civilians. A BBC reporter said he saw Hizbullah terrorists using a private home and added, “It is difficult to quantify who is a terrorist and who is a civilian.”
In an interview with the BBC Mr Howells [British foreign minister] said Britain recognised Israel’s need to defend itself, described Hezbollah as a “terrorist” group and criticised it for hiding missiles and fighters in civilian areas.
He also called on Russia, China, Saudi Arabia and Egypt to put pressure on Iran, widely accused of arming Hezbollah.
My guess is that milk is a non-threatening thing associated with babies, youth, child development, and all around wholesomeness. Therefore, it carries more emotional weight.
Next thing you know they’ll be bombing puppy daycare centers.
I think it’s resemblance (so they say) of milk production equipment to bacteriological warfare production equipment. This was a common theme IIRC in the Great WMD Hunts of the 1990’s. We’d say we found a bug factory, they’d say it was a milk factory.
Well, when your enemy is committed to your destruction, yes, there’s nothing else you can do. And I will say, just from the layman’s perspective, it does seem as though that part of the conflict is, if not overlooked, then minimalized by the other side. As if to say, “yes, they say that, but that’s really just rhetoric.” You can’t blame Israel for taking them seriously. I read an interview with a spokesperson for Hizbollah’s TV station, and he was asked point blank if the organization for which he speaks still supports the destruction of Israel, and he completely sidestepped the question.
I’m surprised to hear you say it can’t get any worse, though. I mean, it was much worse 20 and 30 years ago, right? Today, Israel has relative peace with Egypt and Jordan…surely there’s at least some corresponding amelioration in terms of the attitudes of the Arab street. Even Lebanon, just within the last year…it really does seem like things were getting better. But I know historically we’ve seen the same pattern unfold before.
Also, I think back to what you said before about Israel calling Hizbollah (and by extension Syria’s and Iran’s) bluff…do you really think they’re bluffing, though? It really seems like they want all-out war, at least Iran. And Hizbollah certainly seems ready for jihad. I’m scared it isn’t a bluff at all…
Of course lebanon should round up the terrorists and take care of the problem. Its easy to do isnt it.
Any one remember Oklahoma city and the Murrh Bldg. Branch Dividians ring a bell. Are there any white supremists ,natzis or KKK operating in America. Its cheap talk. generally rounding up the nuts with the police results in more. They are in every country in the world. The middle east is a lightning rod for the terrorists. They are created, trained and armed there. But ,if Lebanon was really trying they would have rounded them all up. If not its their tough luck if Irael feels the need to kill them all.
Maybe Hezbollah are indeed hiding rocket launchers on top of apartment blocks and in schools, which justifies attack by Israel.
But why do you think Israel is attacking
-
fleeing vehicles?
What would the tactical advantage be?
I reckon it would be to counter the tactical advantage gained from using ambulances for staging combat operations. Of course, at this time we don’t know that Hezbollah also is doing this, but if Palestinian militants are not doing it, it wouldn’t be a stretch to imagine that their cross-border friends are doing it as well. After all, in the view of militants, the Zionist hegomony is illegal and immoral, therefore no action countering it could be illegal or immoral, could it?
Perhaps that Palestinian terrorists have made a habit of using ambulances, including Red Cross, have something to do with it?
One
Two
Two
Perhaps it’s a complete lie, a la the “Jenin-genocide” which turned out to never having happened. Or the killed boy which started the 2. intifada, which it turned out was killed not by Israeli. etc.
Perhaps it’s just not always so easy to clearly see what’s going on down below on the ground, when you’re high up in an airplane.
Perhaps a mistake. One should expect many such in times of war.
But it seems to me they’re hitting (and antagonising) the wrong guys in their “tat”. As far as I have understood Lebanese from northern Lebanon as well as Druse Lebanese are not in general enemies of Israel. But both are hurt by this campaign. And Lebanon as a whole have is fairly secular and have just thrown off the Syrian yoke. Syria and Iran are the real enemies in this conflict. Iran is too far away and perhaps too big, but it seems to be it would be more reasonable to target Syria. Now if Syria manage to position itself as a peacemaker in the current conflict it’ll even profit from its proxy-war.
You mean, like luring Israel into blowing up ambulances ? Israel does seem determined to do what it’s enemies want.
Oddly enough, the mirror image of the Israeli attitude. One side uses fake ambulances, the other blows up real ones.