Issues of acceptance for transgendered people

[Aeschines]

First, I am very much for LGBTQ rights. I believe in accommodating people as much as possible in society and, contrariwise, am against making people feel like shit about their differences.

As a person who has never been a super-conformist person, often not finding myself fitting into society very well, I feel that my life gets easier the more all kinds of people find acceptable. As a rather metro guy, I feel that the increase in out and proud people has turned down the “gotta be macho” dial in society, which has made my life easier.

OK, so I’m going to ask the following question with no offense intended to anyone. I would be particularly interested in the thoughts of transgendered Dopers.

To me there seems to be a bit of paradox at work in being transgendered. To a large degree, LGB people can say, “It’s my sexuality. It’s my thing, not based on your thing. Accept it.” IOW, they don’t care about society’s norms with respect to sexuality, at least not with respect to the narrow issue of sexual preference (they may agree or not agree with society’s norms in other areas, such as monogamy, etc.).

Yet it would seem that transgender people need to care about society’s norms, since the chosen gender identity is based on society’s norms. For example, let’s say I am a man who likes to dress as a woman. I am not merely wearing whatever clothes I happen to like, which would arguably not be transgender in terms of intent. Rather, I am dressing as a woman because society has a norm for how women dress, and I want to participate in that gestalt, as it were.

The same would seem to apply to those who wish to be of the opposite sex physically/biologically. Presumably most people do not want to do a sex change and keep it to themselves; they want to be accepted by society as belonging to their chosen gender.

So the paradoxical part seems to me to be this: transgendered people want to “violate” society’s sexual norms yet be accepted under those norms at the same time. It is a case of wanting to have the cake and eat it at the same time.

Now as a very liberal person who aims to be accepting of everyone, I think that society should understand the various types of transgendered people, accept that there will always be people with these desires, and accommodate them. This is what has happened with gay people: society has overcome (to some degree) its ignorance, has come to understand that a certain portion of the population will be gay, and is beginning to incorporate this fact into its norms.

Yet… there is still trickier territory to deal with when it comes to transgendered people.

For example, let’s say John works in our office. Wears nice business casual, good worker. One day he comes in in a skirt and with lipstick on. The politically correct response is: deal with it. He’s transgendered, so accommodate.

That’s what I would certainly say. At the same time, however, let’s say I came in one day wearing a 70s leisure suit. I say, “Hey, it’s my style.” What is the politically correct response in that case? Of course, people would make fun of me, and it could theoretically lead to me getting fired if I went into a meeting with customers looking like that, etc.

So here’s what’s interesting about this situation. John, by being transgendered, puts himself/herself beyond criticism. Even if he wore an outfit from the 1978 Sears Wishbook, he could not be, in theory, criticized for his clothing choices. Whereas I, heteronormative guy that I am, can and will be criticized for same.

Thus, theoretically speaking, if we were to be 100% accommodating of transgendered people, in order to be fair, we would have to be 100% accommodating of all people’s choices with respect to appearance. There would be no more making fun of mullets, muffin tops, tramp stamps, etc.

In theory, that is. What is more likely to happen is simply to consider transgendered people “above the law” as far as appearance goes and continue to apply restrictive and narrow-minded standards to everyone else.

Thoughts?

I apologize in advance for any offense I may have given above. Thanks for helping me explore this topic.

[Ambivalid]

Well, for one thing, being a cross-dresser doesn’t make one transgendered. There are plenty of people who consider themselves the gender they were born as, and heterosexual, who just like to dress up as the opposite sex.

And you referred to a transgendered person’s decision to be the person they know themselves to be as a “desire”. I may be wrong but I would think most trans folk would call it a need.

[monstro]

I’ve been thinking about the paradox posed in the OP.

Let’s say that the workplace agrees that it is unfair to hold non-transgendered people to a different dress code standard than transgendered employees. So to make everything perfectly “fair”, from now on everyone has to wear the same, gender-neutral uniform. No accessories signifying gender are allowed. Not even make-up is allowed. Everyone is even given the same identical haircut to further mask gender differences.

Would such a rule harm the transgendered people more than the others?

What would it mean to be transgendered if society as a whole adopted the same policy?

[Lamia]

@Aeschines

So here’s what’s interesting about this situation. John, by being transgendered, puts himself/herself beyond criticism. Even if he wore an outfit from the 1978 Sears Wishbook, he could not be, in theory, criticized for his clothing choices. Whereas I, heteronormative guy that I am, can and will be criticized for same.

Is this supposed to be what you think actually happens in the real world, or what you imagine would happen in PC Fantasyland? Because transgender people are very, very far from being considered “beyond criticism” in the real world, and in PC Fantasyland I doubt it would be considered appropriate to mock a coworker for wearing old-fashioned clothes regardless of their gender identity.

I’m sure there are people who think there shouldn’t be dress codes at all, or that dress codes should be totally gender neutral, but I’ve never heard anyone suggest that there should be a dress code for everyone except transgender employees. The only accommodation most transgender people would want would be to be allowed to follow the dress code for the gender that they identify as.

[Trinopus]

Maybe we would benefit by going in the other direction, and simply do away with taboos, traditions, and assumptions regarding clothing entirely. Let anyone wear anything. If a transgender m>f can wear a dress…so can I. Instead of regulating it excessively – mandating everyone to wear a Mao jacket – open it up to total freedom.

[Aeschines]

@Ambivalid

Well, for one thing, being a cross-dresser doesn’t make one transgendered. There are plenty of people who consider themselves the gender they were born as, and heterosexual, who just like to dress up as the opposite sex.

Yep, fair point. (LGBTQC?) The same argument applies, however.

And you referred to a transgendered person’s decision to be the person they know themselves to be as a “desire”. I may be wrong but I would think most trans folk would call it a need.

Sure, whichever is correct for that person. I wasn’t trying to characterize it one way or another.

Thanks for your input!

[Aeschines]

@Lamia

Is this supposed to be what you think actually happens in the real world, or what you imagine would happen in PC Fantasyland? Because transgender people are very, very far from being considered “beyond criticism” in the real world,

No doubt.

and in PC Fantasyland I doubt it would be considered appropriate to mock a coworker for wearing old-fashioned clothes regardless of their gender identity.

Right. The point being that, if we became PC enough as a society to let transgender people choose the appearance that suits them, then we would in theory be PC enough to let everyone choose the appearance that suits them.

I’m sure there are people who think there shouldn’t be dress codes at all, or that dress codes should be totally gender neutral, but I’ve never heard anyone suggest that there should be a dress code for everyone except transgender employees. The only accommodation most transgender people would want would be to be allowed to follow the dress code for the gender that they identify as.

That sounds like a fair approach.

[Aeschines]

@Trinopus

Maybe we would benefit by going in the other direction, and simply do away with taboos, traditions, and assumptions regarding clothing entirely. Let anyone wear anything. If a transgender m>f can wear a dress…so can I. Instead of regulating it excessively – mandating everyone to wear a Mao jacket – open it up to total freedom.

I actually think that society will evolve in this direction.

[Ethilrist]

@Aeschines

So the paradoxical part seems to me to be this: transgendered people want to “violate” society’s sexual norms yet be accepted under those norms at the same time. It is a case of wanting to have the cake and eat it at the same time.

From what I’ve read, that’s not it at all… societal norms have nothing to do with it. Transgender people feel they were born with the wrong body parts, and feel that they are a gender different from their biological one: A transgender man doesn’t want to go against societal norms; he’s a man, and he wants to abide by the norms. He just happens to have the wrong plumbing, and seeks hormonal therapy and surgery to correct the physical mistakes in his being. If he seeks anything from society, it’s acceptance of the fact that he IS a man, not that he wants to be one.

[Green_Bean]

@Aeschines

For example, let’s say John works in our office. Wears nice business casual, good worker. One day he comes in in a skirt and with lipstick on. The politically correct response is: deal with it. He’s transgendered, so accommodate.

That’s what I would certainly say. At the same time, however, let’s say I came in one day wearing a 70s leisure suit. I say, “Hey, it’s my style.” What is the politically correct response in that case? Of course, people would make fun of me, and it could theoretically lead to me getting fired if I went into a meeting with customers looking like that, etc.

The comparison doesn’t work.

In your example, John is wearing clothing that is appropriate for one gender in a business casual office. A 70s leisure suit isn’t appropriate for anybody in that setting.

[Napier]

@Aeschines

[…]

So the paradoxical part seems to me to be this: transgendered people want to “violate” society’s sexual norms yet be accepted under those norms at the same time.

[…]

I think you’re off track in a few ways (regarding transgender people) and this sentence sums it up. Most transgender people I’ve talked to, or whose writing I’ve read, have a fairly consistent want to fit into and be accepted under societal norms. The difference relative to cisgender (“not transgender”) people is that they have been assigned a gender that they know isn’t correct. To understand this situation, imagine that everybody else expects you to present yourself as the opposite of whatever gender you are.

When you meet somebody for the first time, generally, you have a quick sense of what gender they are, and you just take it for granted. You often use clues that the other person chooses to provide, such as whether they’re wearing a dress or a tie, whether they sign their name Mr. or Ms., whether they use makeup or have a beard, and so forth. You would never, ever strip them to check whether your definition of their “real sex” matches how they have presented themselves. This is just how we do it. No doubt you have unknowingly experienced this with a few transgender people during your lifetime, as well as all the times you’ve done this with cisgender people.

If somebody you have known as one gender suddenly presents themselves as the other gender, why not accept the gender they present today, the way you would a stranger? What possible need could you have to argue with them what their gender is?

So, all of this is about transgender people who feel comfortable in one of the societally common gender roles. But something like a quarter of transgender people are genderqueer and just reject the societal norm of there being two tidy genders and nothing else. I guess you could say this is a want to violate a social norm, though I think it more accurate to say there’s a social norm they just don’t buy into. A genderqueer friend of mine describes filling out a form to mail in a rebate after buying an appliance, and points out that there’s no reason to involve their genitals in the process of cashing in this coupon. And there isn’t!

[Nava]

@Trinopus

Maybe we would benefit by going in the other direction, and simply do away with taboos, traditions, and assumptions regarding clothing entirely.

Not only clothing. Sexism is the notion that once you know (or think you know) the status of somebody’s groin you know who they are. “Girls can’t be engineers”… “boys don’t wear Dora backpacks”… Fuck that shit.

[Aeschines]

Thanks, Napier. Very edifying response.

[Teuton]

@Napier

A genderqueer friend of mine describes filling out a form to mail in a rebate after buying an appliance, and points out that there’s no reason to involve their genitals in the process of cashing in this coupon. And there isn’t!

There’s a big one, and it’s the reason they ask you about it - marketing.

[DocCathode]

The OP, in my opinion, contains several mistakes.

#1 There seems to be some conflation of sexual orientation and sexual identity. Orientation is based on what you identify as and who you are attracted to. Identity is simply what you sex you identify as.

#2 Not all trans people want to conform to society’s gender norms. In the recent past even, it was very difficult to get hormone therapy and surgery if you didn’t say you identified as a very feminine woman or a mucho macho man. There are plenty of transwomen who identify as ‘butch’ but identify as women none the less.

#3 Transpeople don’t feel they have been classified as the wrong gender based on societal norms. There are plenty of gay men who like stereotypically feminine things, desire sex with only men, yet still identify as men. There are transwomen who are not stereotypically feminine. There are transmen who are not stereotypically masculine.
#4 I’ve never been in a situation where transpeople were above reproach. Here at the SDMB, use of the word 'Tranny" is against the rules as hate speech. Calling a trans poster ‘delusional’ will likely get you a warning. But pitting a trans poster based on their actions and the content of the posts is just fine.

[Una_Persson]

Several people in this thread have provided good comments back. Since I am a transsexual woman who is out, an activist even, and working now officially as part of an institute, I will comment.

@Aeschines

So the paradoxical part seems to me to be this: transgendered people want to “violate” society’s sexual norms yet be accepted under those norms at the same time. It is a case of wanting to have the cake and eat it at the same time.

I think the problem is a fundamental missing a key part of the transgender experience.

Most cisgender women (forgive the term…please no debates, folks) can wear a man’s shirt, men’s jeans, sneakers, forgo makeup, have short hair, and still most of the time they will still be pegged as women. As butch women maybe, or “manly”, but generally speaking, they give off the body language and comportment and voice and other cues which say “this is a woman.”

Many transgender people don’t pass. In fact transgender people not passing is the butt of innumerable cruel jokes, as well as opening them up to abuse, mental, emotional, and physical. Recent threads have had a plethora of examples.

Transwomen (I’m going to stick with them, since every transman I’ve ever met passes) need to adopt as many of society’s social norms as a survival technique. So they load themselves up with as many indicators as possible which say “I am a woman” without trying to go over the top. They wear skirts when women would wear jeans. They wear more makeup, when some women might wear none. They are doing it to cover up the inequities.

Long-term transwomen as generally indistinguishable. One of my best friends is a long-term post-op. She dresses in jeans, skips makeup, lounges and watches football and drinks Bud Lite. But she also has so much work done to her by estradiol and some surgery, and has learned so much female comportment and voice, that even in that tomboy mode, men look at her and say “cool chick.”

Now as a very liberal person who aims to be accepting of everyone, I think that society should understand the various types of transgendered people, accept that there will always be people with these desires, and accommodate them. This is what has happened with gay people: society has overcome (to some degree) its ignorance, has come to understand that a certain portion of the population will be gay, and is beginning to incorporate this fact into its norms.

Another thing which cisgender people cannot fathom, because it’s not really possible, is I have never met a transgender person who wanted to transition. We want to be normal. We want to blend in, have a family, a job, live life without complication. But we weren’t dealt that hand; we were dealt a hand which reads “you have a gender dysphoria which is so severe you will essentially have to re-invent your entire life to survive. If you don’t, you have a good chance of crippling depression and death.”

Who wakes up one day and says “hey, I want to be one of the most oppressed and hated minorities in western civilization?”

Intersex transgender people (like me) have even less choice. And more pain.

For example, let’s say John works in our office. Wears nice business casual, good worker. One day he comes in in a skirt and with lipstick on. The politically correct response is: deal with it. He’s transgendered, so accommodate.

John needs to express that she is transgender in unambiguous communication. Otherwise, he is probably a crossdresser.

And there are practicalities. Neither John nor any transgender person has carte blanche to come into work and say “deal with it.” I’ve posted of my work transition, and the reason mine went ideally was because I planned, planned, planned, informed fully, worked with HR, met with all my co-workers and told them my life story, etc. Which is why I was not only accepted 100% at a very high-visibility career, but my career has been thriving since, with more friends, more respect, and more…well, quality of life, at work than ever.

That’s what I would certainly say. At the same time, however, let’s say I came in one day wearing a 70s leisure suit. I say, “Hey, it’s my style.” What is the politically correct response in that case? Of course, people would make fun of me, and it could theoretically lead to me getting fired if I went into a meeting with customers looking like that, etc.

Wearing a leisure suit is not a potentially life-threatening medical condition recognized by major international medical bodies, one where social gender transition is a necessary treatment. Here’s where there is a serious disconnect.

Transgender people are not people who say “I’m genetically driven to wear skirt suits!” They are people who say “I’m genetically driven to be female! To gain more acceptance in Society as a whole, I must wear skirt suits!” Big difference.

So here’s what’s interesting about this situation. John, by being transgendered, puts himself/herself beyond criticism. Even if he wore an outfit from the 1978 Sears Wishbook, he could not be, in theory, criticized for his clothing choices. Whereas I, heteronormative guy that I am, can and will be criticized for same.

It has nothing to do with the clothes. The clothes are only a visible manifestation which is driven by a need for survival via social conformity.

Thus, theoretically speaking, if we were to be 100% accommodating of transgendered people, in order to be fair, we would have to be 100% accommodating of all people’s choices with respect to appearance. There would be no more making fun of mullets, muffin tops, tramp stamps, etc.

And here is the problem again - you compare being transgender with having bad fashion sense. You say you don’t intend to offend, but with respect, you are being, intentionally or not, offensive. I’ll take you at your word that you want to learn about this, and I will not take offense.

[Jragon]

@Una_Persson

Transwomen (I’m going to stick with them, since every transman I’ve ever met passes) need to adopt as many of society’s social norms as a survival technique. So they load themselves up with as many indicators as possible which say “I am a woman” without trying to go over the top. They wear skirts when women would wear jeans. They wear more makeup, when some women might wear none. They are doing it to cover up the inequities.

I think there’s some sexism here (in society, not on the part of Una). Just taking cross-dressing without touching transgender I noticed something when I was at Phoenix Comic Con. A woman can dress as a boy. There were so many women dressed up as boys and men, and some of them were well done. Plenty of people wanted tot ake pics with them and complimented them. A guy dresses up as a chick? Holy shit, it’s a national incident. No matter how attractive the guy, no matter how well made the costume, no matter how gender neutral or boyish the costume (there was an Alyx Vance for instance, who isn’t particularly feminine as far as clothing goes) – if a guy was dressing up as a female character it was nothing but abuse. Maybe not to their face, but it was sickening and completely systemic, I tried to curb the snide remarks in my friends, but anybody who tried to champion m->f cosplay to anybody who made a remark would have got stuck in this devastating depth-first search of doing nothing but talking to 3000 people all day (and probably being asked to leave for annoying 3/4ths of the people at the con).

The only thing I can think of is sexism – e.g. why would you want to be the “weaker” or “lesser” gender? Not conscious sexism, but implicit. It’s just a hunch though. It may stem from something else entirely.

[Aeschines]

Thanks, Una Persson, that was very educational.

As for being offensive, I think the situation is a minefield. It is a lot harder for people outside to understand than, say, people who are gay or bi, and there are a lot more variations to understand. For example, genderqueer has come up in this discussion.

There was an online kerfluffle recently I saw in which a genderqueer person didn’t want to be called “she” but “on.” Things can get quite complicated.

I think the thing we want to avoid, transgender people and people with good intentions like myself (allies), is turning the world of transgender into a third rail, where no matter how hard one tries to get it right, one can’t, and instead of engaging people just try to avoid that world altogether.

I’m not saying I’ve taken all due care in this post, but it is an eggshell stroll kind of situation.

I certainly appreciate all you’ve been through, however, and appreciate your educational comments.

[Jragon]

One thing I’ve learned to accept (even though I kind of struggle with it) is to not feel bad for offending someone. I mean, try to be accommodating, but there are plenty of feminists, genderqueer, transpeople and everything else that are just plain dicks who care more about you adhering to some silly perfect worldview that they made up in their head rather than your intention. These are the kinds of people that utterly flip out when you don’t call them “zir” and things like that (even if you try to accommodate them after the fact).

Some of them probably have decent excuses, but a lot of them are just jerks. There seems to be a lot of friction just within these groups about what the “proper” state of affairs is, and some are intolerant of anything other than their own narrow perception of what’s right. Just because you have a marginalized identity doesn’t mean you’re not also kind of a jerk.

There’s also idiots everywhere. There was a debate that could have been reasonable about pre and post-op transgender men trying to get with lesbians. Could have been great. Instead it devolved into “my penis is in no way masculine” vs “you’re all just a bunch of sleezeball poseur pick up artists trying to rape women by pretending to be one”. Not exactly the most reasoned or understanding position on either side.

Edit: That read badly. I’m speaking about a specific class of people. There are plenty of wonderful people that know they prefer a very atypical pronoun (and things like that) and are quite happy to accommodate someone who tries. It’s just that sometimes if you’re trying to be tolerant and somebody flips out at you it can make you feel bad – I’m referring to the kind of people who flip out rather than try to work with the fact that the world isn’t the utopia they want it to be and you’re at least trying. Kind of like the feminists who go crazy and start arguing that Buffy isn’t the least bit feminist for no reason other than Buffy herself isn’t a fat ugly lesbian (an argument I’ve actually seen). Baby steps, guys, baby steps.

[Una_Persson]

@Aeschines

Thanks, Una Persson, that was very educational.

As for being offensive, I think the situation is a minefield. It is a lot harder for people outside to understand than, say, people who are gay or bi, and there are a lot more variations to understand. For example, genderqueer has come up in this discussion.

Note that the transgender community is struggling for its own sense of identity, and the struggles have been bitter in some cases. Let me pose some of the questions asked by my community:

• Are crossdressers transgender? Victoria Prince liked to claim that, to try to get away from the stigma of crossdressers who dress for sexual thrill. Yet every crossdresser I’ve ever met who calls themselves “transgender” also claims they are a “guy”, not a “girl” - or at best, a “girl” for 2 hours at the bar, then a “guy” otherwise. The opinion of most of the doctors I work with is “no, you aren’t transgender” and I support that notion. However, most of my actual transgender friends want to accept crossdressers with no gender dysphoria at all under the transgender label. So who’s right?

• “What are genderqueer people? And what’s the deal with airline food…?” Seriously, I don’t know many in the community who understand genderqueer folks. When I speak to genderqueer folks, almost unanimously they tell me they are only flexing their gender muscle to “fuck with people”, make a political statement, or reasons like “it pisses my mom off.” Yet most of my transgender friends want to include them in the transgender umbrella. Who’s right?

• What is the difference between transgender and transsexual? Typically the definition in extreme shorthand is that a transgender person has gender dysphoria, but the transsexual acts to change their body. Every transgender person I know objects to this line, every transsexual person I know supports this line. Who’s right?

• Should post-op women submerge and go deep stealth, or should they have a duty to stay in the community? Every single post-op woman I know says the former, save for one. I believe in the latter, and when I get my surgery I have no intention of being deep stealth. For one thing, why would I? When I have a wife who adores me for being transsexual and intersex, when the CEO of my company greets me by name with a smile and has lunch with me in public for photo ops, when my family is behind me, when I have 2 dozen close friends…what would get better if I was deep stealth? Nothing; everything would get worse, in fact. And yet, I’m clearly not the world.

• Should non-op women be considered “real”, or are they just people who want to be “shemales.”

Thorny issues and kerfluffles are starting to wear on my community.

I think the thing we want to avoid, transgender people and people with good intentions like myself (allies), is turning the world of transgender into a third rail, where no matter how hard one tries to get it right, one can’t, and instead of engaging people just try to avoid that world altogether.

Hypersensitivity from the community is common; I not only witness it, I’ve been the target of it.