In your opinion, is it legitimate for a person to distinguish between a behavior, just as gay sex, versus a genetic trait, such as being an African American?
From your previous posts, I would say that your answer is no, because as a homosexual, you believe that your plight is the same as the blacks in the 1950s, and you are a discriminated against minority.
Well, what about people who have religious beliefs against your lifestyle? Should we all die, or be forced to accept your lifestyle as legitimate, even though 200 years of our history have said otherwise.
Should the same constitution that allowed laws against homosexual sodomy as late as 2003, be construed to guarantee! the “right” of gay marriage in 2007?
What act of depravity will be forced upon traditional people in this country? Animal sex? Public sex? Please tell us, so we can prepare our children to fight the battle that we have lost…
Who, may I ask, is forcing YOU to do ANYTHING? I hear this argument every time something like this comes up and I’m forced to ask, What business is it of yours? Do you have some sort of delusion that you have the RIGHT to not see things that offend your religious sensibilities? I can name several places you can go and not see any gay affection or activity at all…they’re called Afghanistan. Or Saudi Arabia. Or Iran.
Is it that you’re afraid you’ll have to tell your children the truth, that some people feel love and affection for people of the same sex as them? Oh, boohoo. Maybe you’ll actually have to raise your child to exist in a world where people are respected not because of the gender of their partner, but by the content of their character. Are you afraid that in twenty or thirty years your personal religious spitefits will be viewed exactly the same way that Bull Connor and Orval Faubus are today?
Except for the fact that it’s easier for gays to hide, yes they are a discriminated minority.
Then they, and their religion, are evil. Not to mention stupid.
You should be forced to act like civilized human beings. Or fined or tossed in prison like any other criminal, depending on the offense.
Construed, or changed. And how long bigotry has lasted doesn’t make it any less evil.
With any luck at all “traditional people” will see their beliefs and values utterly destroyed, and mocked for the vileness and stupidity they are by future generations. Rather like past “traditional” beliefs, like slavery, female subjugation or burning witches. And their children or grandchildren will hopefully grow up as good people, and not “traditional” people. Which in this context are pretty much opposites.
So, when Pat Buchanan in his 1992 “Cultural War” speech was talked about as “crazy”, “inflammatory”, and “without merit”, would his detractors like the previous posters agree that he was absolutely right?
How about this from a previous poster:
“With any luck at all “traditional people” will see their beliefs and values utterly destroyed, and mocked for the vileness and stupidity they are by future generations”
Seems to me that Mr. Buchanan nailed it, and that the slippery slope is right. There is a war against a traditional family life. And vulgar, obscene, and unnatural sexual behavior would like a place alongside mine.
Look, I don’t care who you fuck behind closed doors. Fuck the cat for all I care. Just don’t go to the courthouse and try to legitimise it.
And who gets to define “vulgar, obscene, and unnatural sexual behavior” ? You ? And it’s legitimate right now, the only question is one of legality.
And there’s no war against “traditional family life”; no one is trying to make you turn gay or whatever other Christian persecution fantasy you believe in. There’s a “war” against the people who wish to impose their vision of family life on everyone else, by force. The followers of “traditional values” are and have always been at war with everyone else.
Interestingly enough, the theme of anti-lesbianism is not nearly as common in dancehall music, and Elephant Man is actually targeted by very many dancehall and reggae artists as being a gay man himself. It is possible he ‘protests too much’, and therefore attempted to distract from his own gay rumors by attacking lesbians.
I am a huge fan of dancehall and reggae music, and some of my favorite artists do have anti-gay lyrics, (Buju is one of my favorite artists…he didn’t perform any of his anti-gay lyrics at the last 5 or 6 concerts I attended from him.)
I know that Sizzla and Capelton still perform the homophobic stuff. I can’t make excuses for them, but I do admit that I don’t allow the personal beliefs of artists prevent me from appreciating their art.
Also, I hope that many people will at least consider the fact that ‘burn them down’ is highly symbolic. As Rastafarians that believe in certain passages of the bible that are anti-gay, the artists believe it should be abolished, and they often explain in their music that ‘burning’ is not to be taken literally with the English translation of the word. It means something different to the Rastafarian.
No, of course you shouldn’t die. Gay rights isn’t about making you do anything, except leave us in peace. You don’t have to accept our relationships as “legitimate,” whatever that means, but neither should you force us to abide by the strictures of your religion. You believe that God is against homosexuality. I don’t believe that. Why should your religious beliefs be granted the force of law, and not mine?
I used to think that it should, but I’ve been convinced on this board that the right to marriage is not guaranteed by the current language of the Constitution. I do think that it should be ammended to include that language, but there’s little-to-no chance of that happening in my life time. That’s a battle for the next generation to fight.
Don’t worry. I think I can speak for just about the entire gay community, and all our allies, when I say that no one is interested in forcing you to fuck a sheep in public. We just want to enjoy the same rights heterosexuals enjoy, is all. You don’t really have to do anything, except get out of our way.
Oh, and odds are, your kids are already on our side. Sorry 'bout that. If you wanted to keep them anti-gay, you should have come up with some more convincing arguments.
Der Trihs is not representative of the political left, or atheism in general. While he’s (unfortunetly) not quite unique, his viewpoint is very much an insignificant minority in the American political/social landscape. So, yes, Pat Buchanan is a nut. The people he rants about do exist, but they do not have the numbers and influence that he fantasizes they have.
Well, no. There’s a war against bigotry and oppression in this country, and it’s been going on since before it was founded. Happily enough, bigotry and oppression have been steadily losing ground pretty much since day one, and I don’t really see this trend changing any time soon.
Well, why shouldn’t we? Other than the fact that it grosses you out, why shouldn’t gay marriage be legal? What specific harm will it cause you and yours, if two men can go into a courthouse and get a piece of paper that says they’re husbands?
Anyway, any comment on the OP? How do you feel about Jamaican attitudes towards homosexuality? Do you think they should be censured in anyway for them?
This is classic. Pretty much in the same vein as ‘Listen, I don’t care if you’re black, white or purple… [something blatantly racist revealing that the person in question would be better off white or even purple]’
In terms of the general background of violence and lawlessness in Jamaica, the UK Channel 4 programme this article is based on was an eye-opener! I had read some stuff before about the gangs, etc. but nothing had prepared me for the sheer levels of casual violence and endemic poverty…
Maybe giving all people the same rights and legal footing will make gay people just a liiiittle too much like him…if everyone’s married, someone could mistake him for a GAY GUY! How will we ever be able to tell them apart??!!
Can you explain to me then why none of the dozens of countries that have decriminalized gay sex, some of them for several decades now, have had epidemics of animal sex, public sex, etc. My own country, Canada, decriminalized gay sex between consenting adults in 1969, and even the most conservative conservative in Canada would not claim that it has led to a rash of animal sex or whatever. They would be laughed off the stage by just about every person in Canada, no matter what their political affiliation, if they suggested such a thing.
No, colour is not the same as sexuality. Nor is it the same thing as religion, or ethnic origin within the same colour group. Nor is it the same as gender. Some you are born with, some aspects you choose. But from racial discrimination to the massacre of the French Protestants by French Catholics in the 1500s, to the massacres of Poles and Jews by the Nazis, to the murder and mutilation of gay rights activists in Jamaica, there is a common thread. Blind hatred of people who are different.
And it is based on fear such as the nightmare scenarios you are promoting.
No, JTgain sexual orientation and race are not identical situations. Nor is gender, religion, ethnicity, etc.
But let us take your statement and adapt it a little to other historical cases on man’s inhumanity to man.
Your statement is*:“Well, what about people who have religious beliefs against your lifestyle? Should we all die, or be forced to accept your lifestyle as legitimate, even though 200 years of our history have said otherwise.”*
Okay, now I am a white Southern Baptist preacher in the mid 1800s. I am part of the group that has split with the northern Baptists over the slavery issue. Here is my statement:
“Well, what about people who have religious beliefs against abolition? Should we all die, or be forced to accept your abolitionist ideas as legitimate, even though 300 years of our history (and a large number of bible verses supporting slavery)have said otherwise?”
Okay, now I am a French Catholic in the 1500s, about to participate in the massacre of tens of thousands of French Protestants: “Well, what about people who have religious beliefs against Protestant heresy? Should we all die, or be forced to accept your heresy as legitimate, even though 1570 years of the Catholic Church’s history have said otherwise.” (BTW, if being gay is a “choice” so is converting to protestantism.)
Okay, I am now a member of he White Citizen’s Council of Mongomery, opposing the Bus Boycott and the demands of the NAACP: “Well, what about people who have religious beliefs against race mixing? Should we all die, or be forced to accept integration as legitimate, even though 150 years of our history and a Supreme Court decision several decades ago have said otherwise?”
Okay, now I am an opponernt of ledtting women vote in the early part of the last century: “Well, what about people who have religious beliefs regarding the traditional place of women in society? Should we all die, or be forced to accept female suffrage as legitimate, even though thousands of years of our history, going back to ancient Greece, have said otherwise?”
Okay, now I am a white man at a construction site in the 1800s who is turning away lilly-white Irishmen applying for work with a big sign saying, “No Irish need apply.” “Well, what about Americans who have religious beliefs against Popish Catholicism? Should we all die, or be forced to accept the flood of Papist Irishmen as legitimate, even though America has been a mainly Protestant country for 200 years of our history ?”
The denigration of a human being for being different is evil.
That’s the whole debate, but you are stating your belief as fact.
It was considered depravity in this country for most of the past 200 years. It was punishable by death in the middle ages.
Now, again, just because YOU say it is no longer an act of depravity doesn’t make it so.
The flames that I have received only reiterate my point. If you have a traditional belief, just like almost everyone had since this country’s inception, you are called names.
If you wish to live a traditional Christian life, follow the Bible, and expect a traditional sense of order in society, you are an outcast.
Whether or not you agree with Pat Buchanan (obviously you all don’t) you have to admit that he was right in that we ARE in a cultural war.
But when he said it, everyone said that the very idea that there was a cultural war was ridiculous. From the responses I get, how can it be otherwise?
Sexual activity is an act. Sexual orientation is not. That is a fact.
Could you, under any circumstances, find yourself sexually attracted to a person of the same sex? I could not. On the other hand, i know any number of people who genuinely are attracted to members of their same sex. It is not voluntary. It is not something chosen. It is how they are. How is this not a fact?
You mean in the way that people who were not following traditional beliefs have been called “nigger-lover,” “faggot,” “dyke,” “commie,” and other names? People are stupidly cruel and they use name-calling as weapons. It is hardly limited to one side of the discussion or another.
I live a traditional Christian life, follow theBible, and expect order in society. I do not see where this gives me the right to impose my beliefs on other citizens. I do not feel persecuted because another person wishes to express romantic love in a physical way to some other person to whom I am not married, anyway. I’m not sure why you seem to feel that you are persecuted for being asked to not interfere in others’ lives.
No one is arguing about what you do with your life. It is when you try to force the rest of society to “live a traditional Christian life” that you run into problems.
Gays/Lesbians are not asking that you watch them have sex. They are not even asking that you think about them having sex. They are asking that they be allowed the same legal rights as heterosexual couples - the right to inherit property, the right to make medical decisions (and in some cases even hospital visitations), etc.
Homosexuals are not asking that they be invited into your home. The things they are asking would change your life in no way whatsoever.
Again I ask you - what does it take away from you if homosexual couples get married?
And as for the “choice” debate - how can you even imagine that someone would consciously make the decision to be hated and outcast, as homosexuals have been for so many years? Why would someone “decide” to be gay in Jamaica, when it could literally get them killed? How in the world can you honestly believe that is a choice?