That’s why the complete fantasy includes forcing Pence out somehow as well despite there not being any serious allegations against him. Other than “oh come on, he’s gotta be involved somehow”*.
*eta: as I now see dutifully fantasized above.
It’s certainly been entertaining to hear the Fox side keep insisting there’s nothing to any of this, as the subpoenas and indictments continue.
I see you remain as ignorant of actual facts in this matter as you have always been.
On May 8, 2017, Pence was present in the meeting with Trump, Sessions, McGahn and others where a coverup strategy was discussed on presenting the basis for Trump’s firing of James Comey. It was decided that they would say the basis for the firing was the Rod Rosenstein memo. Pence helped to construct the talking points that would be used in the coverup.
On May 10, 2017, Pence publicly denied that stopping the FBI investigation into Trump’s involvement with Russian subversion of the election was the reason that Trump fired Comey, insisting that the firing was based on Rosenstein’s memo and stuck to his talking points.
On May 11, 2017, Trump himself went on live television and admitted he fired Comey because of the FBI investigation. Pence already knew that. That makes him part of one criminal act of obstruction of justice.
There are many others, but you can find these out for yourself, if you’re actually interested. No fantasy required.
I too remember Watergate, although it was in my callow youth. I don’t think those who supported him early on were quite as committed as today’s Trumpets with their Donny Two-scoops. Pre-Watergate Nixon’s approval ratings were bouncing around between 50 and 70% with a slide over a year’s span to 25% after Watergate became news. While Trump’s approval ratings were never that high to begin with, they stubbornly refuse to dip much below 35% even after a year of disarray in the White House and his staffers that makes Nixon’s troubles pale by comparison. I doubt even a dead Russian hooker being found dead in the Lincoln bedroom clutching a signed contract between Putin and Trump is going to move his approval rating any lower because – Fake News!!!1!!!
However, all that does is give us Paul Ryan.After him Hatch then Tillerson. “It’s turtles all the way down.”
But it is not a fantasy at all. The GOP could gladly throw Trump under the bus, they prefer Pence or Ryan, and Trump has shown he cant bring in the votes. Trump does have a hard core cadre yes, but it’s not that big.
OK, first of all, we have to suppose that this is 2019 and the Democrats have taken a comfortable majority in the House, because a Republican-controlled House is never going to start the impeachment. Well, that’s not too far-fetched yet. And let’s also suppose that there’s been some smoking gun found that nails Trump absolutely dead to rights. This is being somewhat optimistic, but let’s go with that, too. In that case, we just might be able to convince enough Republicans in the Senate to convict Trump, because it doesn’t actually hurt them all that much: It just means that we get President Pence.
Well, OK, but what if we also get some sort of smoking gun on Pence! Then we could kick both of them out, and end up with President Pelosi! Right? Except you still need the Republican votes in the Senate, and that’s just not going to happen. You might be able to convince a few of them to replace one Republican with another, but there’s no way in Hell (nor in the District of Columbia, which amounts to about the same thing) that you’ll get enough of them to vote to replace a Republican with Pelosi, no matter how damning the evidence might be.
So, what should we do, given that we can’t get a Democrat into the oval office until 2021 no matter what happens? I say that we look for those smoking guns, and then for every smoking gun we find, we take the process as far as we can. It’s no good saying "Well, we know the other side wouldn’t cooperate anyway, so there was no sense in us trying to do the right thing, because that too easily leads to both sides saying that, and then nothing good ever gets done. We need to lead by example, and show what should be done. If we can’t get the crooks out because of the crooked Republicans, then force that to be the reason we can’t get them out, instead of the reason being because we never tried.
I saw that over the weekend and laughed my ass off. Very well done!
Further to what I said upthread, it would not surprise me in the list if impeachable offenses are uncovered by Mueller. I hope we get some resolution on what his investigation uncovered soon. That is to say, this quarter.
The fantasy isn’t that Pence is aware of and complicit in a coverup to some degree, but that that the Congress would vote to impeach and remove him as well as Trump. Pence is far more appealing to the overall Republican base than Trump is, and his lack of flair is an antidote to the absurdity the Trump presidency as brought to the party. (“See? We’re not all Twitter-happy loons with a megalomaniac complex!”) And Pence has a legitimate reason to refuse to shake Angela Merkel’s hand. (“I’m sorry but Mother isn’t here, and I can’t make physical contact with another woman with her express consent.”).
The notion of impeachment is predicated on a large number of Republicans in Congress suddenly finding their consciences (“Ah, under the sofa cushion…and that $370k that Dow Chemical said they were going to donate to me! Pizza party, guys!”) even though this last year and in particular the shenanigans around the tax bill and the events leading up to last weekend’s government shutdown have clearly indicated will not happen. The only way impeachment occurs is if the Republican leadership is somehow shamed into voting for it, and Mitch McConnell enjoys a good public shaming like Chris Christie likes an empty public beach to sun himself on.
As much as I’d like to enjoy the fantasy of impeachment, removal, and/or criminal trials for the entire clown car of the Trump adminstration, including Trump, Pence, Sessions, Zinke, Mnuchin, DeVos, et cetera, the odds of that actually happening are about the same as the planet being hit by a gamma ray burst in the next three years. Rather than focus on this instant fantasy of removal and replacement (and really, do you want a Paul Ryan or Steve Scalise as the replacement president?) it would be better to put your collective creative energies into maximizing opposition to candidates supporting Trump in the 2018 elections, and egg on Trump to keep maintaining that record high disapproval ratings, because if there is one thing Trump does know, it is how to get the best ratings.
Stranger
Impeaching Trump and Pence? How would that even work? Would there be simultaneous proceedings, or would one have to wait on the other (Trump’s being first, I would assume)?
Probably more like Nixon’s was choreographed - do Pence first (or he just resigns), pick an acceptable Elder Statesman to replace him like Nixon was faced with picking Ford, get him sworn in, then Trump is dead meat.
I agree with your reasoning completely.
We can’t worry if we end up with President Pence or President Ryan or President Pelosi. Except in the exceedingly unlikely event that we get President Pelosi (won’t happen), we get either Pence or Ryan. With a Democratically-controlled Congress and a Republican party that can’t get anything done even when they control everything, I’m comfortable that Dems will be able to keep the plane in the air and land it safely in 2020. None of those dynamics that are tearing the Republican party apart now change with impeachment/removal. Pence’s policies are too much for even many moderate Republicans.
Also, Pelosi isn’t stupid and she is politically astute. She’s remained the Democratic leader in the House for good reason. If she believes the Democrats are better served by her stepping aside as Speaker in 2019, she’ll do it.
Although there is no precident, I think the House and Senate would both have to have separeate proceedings for each prospective candidate for impeachment. The clever move might be to impeach Pence first, then Trump before he has a chance to nominate someone else for the Vice President, and if it doesn’t happen until after 20 Jan 2019, Paul Ryan has a shot at having the longest presidency of anyone since FDR. In the fantasy world where impeachment happens.
I’m all for uncovering what evidence exists that the Trump campaign colluded with Russian or other foreign agents, and prosecuting everyone involved to the maximum extent that law and the majority party will allow, including a public discussion of why Trump should be impeached and removed. I just don’t expect the Republican leadership to ever allow that action to come to fruition unless they can see some clean way to separate Trump from his base and maintain their political standing. (FWIW, Watergate showed that repairing the party image from such a ‘political calamity’ is not that problematic; you just have to hobble and villify the successive president and then return with a political superstar who talks purty and promises to clean this mess up and “Make America Great [One More Time With Feeling]”. MAGOMTWF!
There is literally nothing new in politics. Apes do exactly the same things except when they throw shit at each other it is literal rather than figurative.
Stranger
Your points are well taken and I would only mention that none of these goals are mutually exclusive. I’m for taking the multi-pronged approach.
As for the fantasy of seeing all the crooks get what they deserve, I always say that if something is possible to accomplish, one’s starting point should be to attempt to accomplish it if there are more good reasons to do it than to not. IMHO, in this instance there are far more good reasons than not!
I’m not personally too worried about President Ryan or President Scalise for reasons mentioned in my previous post. By the time all this would even begin to unfold, he’d only serve for a year and some anyway. And as I’m sure you know, that’s in the best case scenario. Just like fighting ignorance, it always takes longer than we thought.
That’s all a bunch of big IFs. My attitude is that the investigation is just talk until it comes to a conclusion. I don’t want to get Benghazi Fever, convinced that somebody is going to be convicted before the results are revealed.
So- IF the investigation turns up something really nasty, we’d have to revisit the whole question. But I think 67 senate votes will be tough to achieve no matter what, and contrary to some posters here, I am against a failed impeachment. If the Ds can’t follow through, find something productive to do instead.
Or that the GOP finds it *politically expedient *to do so, a much more likely idea. After all Trump has shown he can’t bring the votes.
Uh, wtf?
Yes, Pence was in some meetings. Let me know when you find anything resembling a smoking gun.
When/if Mueller finds it, you’ll know as soon as we do.
That all sounds fine to me, except for the last bit – there are some circumstances in which an attempted impeachment that wasn’t certain to succeed would still be politically a good idea. Not all, but some, depending on the extent and clarity of the evidence of wrongdoing.
Yes and until then keep wanking away at the dream that the entire administration is going down. All I am saying is there isn’t any real reason to think anything heavy is going to fall on Pence. Sure, it might but so far it’s “he was in meetings and he hired a lawyer!”
You make it sound like we’d take spiteful joy in Trump’s downfall, not relief that the country and democracy we love had been saved from a foolish vandal. Because, yanno, other dangers and enemies would remain.