It takes 67 senate votes to impeach. Please don't waste our time.

Politics & Elections
1

Don’t get me wrong, folks. I think Trump is a bad president, for more reasons than just promoting an agenda I don’t like. He’s rude and unprofessional, offensive and and international embarrassment, divisive, uninformed, self-centered, and the jury is still out on whether he is a criminal and what kind. If you are reading this thread I am sure you know the litany.

I would not mind seeing him out of office. Maybe my POV is different from some on this board- I am an independent pragmatist who only registered D in the last cycle to vote Sanders in the primary. I’m not a “liberal”, but I’m no conservative either. It doesn’t matter. The point is, there are not the votes to impeach Trump.

Does anyone argue this point? Does anyone of any political persuasion think impeachment can get through Congress, especially the Senate? I’d wager not many.

A failed impeachment would amount to a worthless, extended headache. If the Ds take control of Congress, they can obstruct Trump’s worst tendencies without resorting to impeachment. If they don’t flush all their sap down the impeachment hole, they can spend 2019 drawing up legislation and trying to get it passed. You know, something useful. A record they can be proud of and run on in 2020.

If they do pursue impeachment, I foresee endless garment rending and teeth gnashing, months of arguing and bullshit, all ending in no results.

This isn’t a complicated point, but I think it is very important. Unless things change dramatically and the Rs start to plainly support it, an attempt at impeachment would be a mistake, a failure, a waste of time and opportunity.

I hope the Ds are smart enough not to pull a failed impeachment.

2

I’m waiting for the results of the Mueller investigation before deciding. Who knows what that is going to uncover?

Otherwise: must… resist… :wink:

3

A failed impeachment would be an absolute blessing for the country. He’d have less time to hurt the USA if he was busy dodging press impeachment inquiries. In fact, anything that keeps him from his duties is a blessing for the country.

4

It depends.

If the Democrats gain either part of Congress in 2018, then they’ll be able to dig deep with a real investigation into Trump’s various potential wrongdoings. If these investigations (along with Mueller’s investigation) comes up with very strong and very clear evidence of major criminal wrongdoing, then I think impeachment would be a very good idea, both morally and politically. It would do the following:

Publicly and formally air such clear and strong evidence of wrongdoing;

Force all Republicans in Congress to take a public position on this clear and strong evidence of wrongdoing.

Even if the impeachment vote ultimately failed, those would be very valuable things for the Democrats, politically speaking.

5

I agree with iiandyiii. I see impeachment as essential.

1- How can we answer future generations when they ask “why did you do NOTHING to stop this monster?” Maybe we can get rid of him, maybe we can’t. But we have no excuse not to try.

2- The coverage will be non-stop for weeks. All of the sordid details will be shown on all the networks except for Fox. People will see what a criminal enterprise this administration is.

3- It will put Senate Republicans on record. Those who vote to convict will be primaried by members of the Cult of Donald who will be easier to defeat. Those who vote to acquit will be less acceptable to those who don’t accept the criminal in the White House

4- It will paralyze the Congress. As long as Republicans control any chamber, less Congressional action is a good thing.

5- It could drive Donald over the edge and cause him to commit suicide.

6- It will give John Roberts less time to try to steer the Supreme Court to the right.

7- If convicted and removed, we’ll stop paying for Secret Service protection for the bum and the rest of his grifter family.

6

I’d rather the focus be on the Dems taking a public stand for right-doing, by proposing, advocating and passing useful legislation. The Rs benefit the wealthy and don’t do much else. If they block a Dem Congress’ good ideas, that could be politically valuable too.

I think a failed impeachment could too easily be cast as partisan shenanigans.

7

Look how badly it went last time we had one. It’ll be perceived as wasting time in partisan frippery. Far better to be seen trying to benefit people and being block so we can move forward into 2020.

8

Far from a waste of time. There are not the votes yet. I agree it will not happen as long as Republicans remain in control of Congress and Democrats would be foolhardy to pursue it with a Republican Congress. But that can change later this year.

I remember Watergate, I remember Whitewater. And now we have this Russia/Trump mess. Of the three, the Russia/Trump criminal acts dwarf the foundational bases other two.

Conspiracy with a foreign power to swing an election.

Many instances of obstruction of justice, including perjury and witness tampering.

Ongoing, blatant abuse of his office to enrich himself and his family.

Illegal campaign contributions.

We have an unrepentant criminal in the White House who commits more ongoing crimes every single day. If the country can’t work out that this one must be impeached, removed from office and prosecuted to the full extent of the law, then it says a whole lot more about us as a nation than it says about Trump.

It takes a lot to move the needle of public opinion, but in the face of overwhelming evidence, it can happen very quickly and dramatically. It happened it Watergate. Nixon won in a landslide in 1972. Less than 2 years later when he left office, you could hardly find a citizen who would admit to voting for Nixon. That’s how it happens.

We know almost nothing of the total results of Mueller’s investigation. Yet what we know already is pretty horrifying. And if it reveals as much as I am confident it will, then most Republicans, including their senators, will have a hard time turning away from what the public demands.

The unknown quantity here is the extent to which the Trump “News” network will maintain its grip on its cultists. That’s the only truly new phenomenon that may bear on how this debacle plays out.

9

Listen to yourself. If we can’t get rid of him, don’t try. Have the wisdom to know what you can change and all that. The alternative to impeachment isn’t “nothing”, and future generations are not about Donald Trump. If we get a failed impeachment, will future generations say, “Me and everyone I know lives in a tent on the sidewalk, but at least the Dems had a go at impeachment”?

And No to paralyzing Congress. We want positive outcomes out of it, not the world’s biggest cluster.

10

We had clear and strong evidence of Clinton’s wrongdoing, too - how valuable was that for the GOP?

You guys are kidding yourselves. You are going to shoot yourselves in the foot (I hope) if you continue to act as if these accusations you have talked yourselves into, without any evidence, were real.

Regards,
Shodan

11

But congressional Rs are owned by wealthy donors. Impeachment would require flipping more than 1/3 of the GOP senate caucus, which seems pretty unlikely. If a prez can invade Iraq on false pretenses, wasting trillions of $$, killing hundreds of thousands and displacing millions more while sowing the seeds of ISIS, Rs will look the other way at a little enrichment.

Hello? The R congress just voted for $1.5 trillion worth of “enrichment” for corporations and the wealthy. It’s why they’re there.

12

I’m sure it looked like that to you.

We’re willing to let Mr. Mueller, not you, determine that.

13

I dispute that it can’t be done. Remember, the Republicans in Congress don’t like Trump very much either. He has no friends there. We wouldn’t have the votes now, but if evidence of more than incompetence and stupidity comes to light, as it could, then I don’t see many in Congress voting to save his skin. They don’t need him to continue doing evil, and they’d be happy to be done with him once and for all.

14

We’re not going to flip more than 1/3 of the GOP Senate caucus. At best, Dems will gain an advantage of 1-2 senators in 2018, putting them in the bare majority.

What I’m saying is, even moderate Republican senators will have a hard time not voting to remove Trump from office if evidence of wrongdoing is overwhelming and their own constituencies demand it. IOW, if support for Trump crumbles when the totality of evidence is known, Republican senators will be falling all over themselves to vote for Trump’s removal.

15

Then it dies in the Senate and what has been accomplished? Oh, yeah. Bragging rights so you can tell your grandchildren “at least we tried!”.

Unless Mueller turns up some dead, urine soaked, Russian oligarch hired hookers this will look like partisan shenanigans.

16

He can’t discuss particulars of an ongoing investigation but, uh…yeah, we’re good.

On a serious note, impeachment should definitely be a consideration, but we have to acknowledge that it has become largely a political action divorced from the severity of offenses, and it makes little sense to attempt to impeach without good assurance that there exists sufficient votes for both impeachment and conviction. Anything short of that makes Trump look strong (even if he just squeaks by on a party line vote) and his oponents look weak and in disarray. And quite frankly, Ryan or whomever replaces him as Speaker isn’t even going to allow for a vote on impeachment and McConnell certainly isn’t going to see the Senate convict, so without a nearly impossible electoral turnover in 2018, discussion about imprachment is a non-starter…as much as Mike Pence quietly wishes for youto hold that discussion.

Of course, President Pence is exactly what you would get with a successful impeachment and conviction, and he is far more palatable to a larger segment of the electorate in 2020 than Trump. So be careful what you wish for; you might get it and find yourself nostalgic for the time when we had an ineffectual infant merely insulting world leaders and tweeting about celebrities he disagrees with rather than a Christian fundamentalist with a real agenda beyond cheating at golf and bragging about his imaginary friends attending his inauguration.

Stranger

17

Yes. A minor and weak perjury case that never would have resulted in criminal prosecution if it had been a regular citizen. Perhaps a Contempt citation.

As opposed to Treason, election fixing, wire fraud, Conspiracy/Collusion, and etc
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-mueller-potential-charges-20171031-story.html

18

I’m for that focus too (and the two things don’t have to be in conflict), but if very clear and very strong evidence of significant criminal wrongdoing (something far, far more serious than lying about an affair), do you really think the Democrats shouldn’t consider impeachment? Suppose Mueller and/or Congressional investigators obtain proof (say, a taped conversation, along with a rock-solid paper trail) that Trump has been knowingly laundering money for criminals for decades.

I’m not saying throw an impeachment around and see what sticks – I’m saying if there is rock-solid evidence of very clear criminality that goes well beyond personal misconduct, impeachment would be wise.

If you’re saying that the Democrats should NEVER pursue impeachment under any circumstances, then that strikes me as crazy talk. There are circumstances in which they could get Republicans to vote for impeachment, and there are circumstances in which they couldn’t but it would still be politically advantageous. There are also circumstances in which it would be a terrible idea.

Okay, I should have specified “serious wrongdoing far beyond lying about an affair”.

Is this in response to my post? What part of my post do you disagree with (aside from the above clarification)? Do you think that there are no circumstances in which the Democrats should pursue impeachment?

19

Not so fast. Pence was a senior member of the campaign team too, and he lawyered up as fast as the rest of them when Mueller got started. Maybe he thought he had reason to?

20

McConnell has already made veiled, public comments that could be construed as a willingness to let a removal vote proceed under the right circumstances. I don’t think he’s nearly as solid Trump as many think.

I’m not sure Pence survives the Mueller inquiry. He has lied a number of times in efforts to protect Trump, leaving him vulnerable to obstruction charges. Not a likely successor under those circumstances.