I agree with everything you said. But it is definitely true that Italian-Americans were self-conscious about their language - sometimes defiantly proud and ashamed of it simultaneously. My mom’s family came from Caserta and Abruzzi, and I saw this exhibited a bit.
This was not really a language issue, IMHO, than a symptom of the oppression experienced by Southern Italians by Northern Italians, and the problems experienced by immigrants. You can see this language consciousness exhibited by other people that have similar histories - African-Americans, Appalachian whites, the Scottish people, and others.
I’ve noticed that a lot of Italian-American pronunciations show the characteristics you’ve outlined: voicing of unvoiced consonants, vowel raising (of /o/->/u/), and clipping the terminal syllable. So, is this a feature mostly in the Neapolitan language, or does it extend further across Italy (like throughout Southern Italy.) Also, are there any observable rules about when such voicing occurs? Like “capocollo” -> “gabuhgool”, and “manicotti” -> “manigut,” but not “pizza” -> “beets” or “pasta puttanesca” doesn’t become “bahst budduhnesk?” Or does it?
Well, I lived in Sicily for a couple of years. And while there was a similar phenomenon going on - Sicilian did develop as a distinct language - the end result was very different, owing in part to the Greek, Norman and Arab influences on the languages and the different path the language took at certain times.
In Sicilian the initial vowel would sometimes be dropped (especially if it was an i) the terminal vowel often was, sometimes the vowel in classical Italian was replaced with a u. Consonant sounds changes were fairly common and some words were different entirely. And this was done in a way different from Neapolitan. I had a few words of kitchen Neapolitan from my family - my Sicilian friends were mystified by some of them.
In Sicilian pronunciation, as I heard it growing up, the unaspirated unvoiced initial stops /k/ /p/ /t/ sound to Anglophone ears similar to the voiced stops /g/ /b/ /d/. Because in English aspirated stops /k[sup]h[/sup]/ /p[sup]h[/sup]/ /t[sup]h[/sup]/ are always unvoiced, and unaspirated stops are always voiced. The absence of aspiration is therefore perceived by English speakers as voicing. Just as the Pinyin letters <b> <d> <g> stand for the unaspirated unvoiced series /p/ /t/ /k/ in Chinese that are contrasted with the aspirated series. In Chinese the aspiration is phonemic, but not in English or Sicilian.
English is my first language. In the Sicilian I heard growing up, pasta at first sounded to me like “basta.” Then I learned how to distinguish aspirated and unaspirated consonants, and I could clearly hear an unaspirated /p/ in “pasta.”
Ah, so it’s a lack of aspiration and not voicing that’s going on there. Now, when Italian-Americans do the pronunciation, is it generally voicing that’s taken over the non-aspiration? In other words, Italian immigrants come over to the US, pronounce the words without initial aspiration, but their kids (or a generation below) convert to closest English approximant, which sounds like voicing? Or are they still generally not aspirating as well?
My impression is that as the second generation grows up as native English speakers, English phonemes will tend to contaminate their pronunciation of the colloquial Italian they hear from their parents. In other words, I think they do start to perceive a difference of voicing instead of aspiration, in conformity with the set of English phonemes, with how the boundaries of English phonemes are drawn.
Indeed, these features are found throughout Southern Italy. I cannot speak for any other part of the country, though.
It’s funny you gave the “pasta puttanesca” and “pizza” examples. Often times, we’ll say 'a pizz for pizza and yes, “puttanesc” can be heard from time to time, as well.
As far as “rules” for these seemingly random pronunciations, it’s like this: When speaking in Neapolitan, and Italian in general, one tries to make their speech flow as cleanly and with as few ear-cringing sounds as possible. Thus, a vowel will be left off at the end of a word if the next word starts with one. When saying a single word, it’s either or, really.
You’re both right. This isn’t always the case, though. My mother and father’s parents come from Napoli and Caserta. My father has a perfect Neapolitan accent when speaking our language. On the other hand, my mother’s parents did not speak Neapolitan around the house often. As a result, my mother speaks Neapolitan with an American tongue, although anybody not fluent in the language would think she sounded like a native.
Believe it or not, the consensus amongst immigrants in those days (they arrived in the 1920s) was that no child can be brought up speaking two languages and speak both of them well. This lie was likely perpetrated by the same folks who tried to outlaw the speaking of German, Italian and Japanese during WW2. Unfortunately, the beautiful languages of Italy all but died after several generations in the New World.
I’d like to also add an interesting point to this thread.
Perhaps some of you are familiar with the various groups of people around the world who speak classic versions of languages that are still spoken today. By this, I mean that this particular group left the country where their language was the mothertongue and continued to speak that way until today. Meanwhile, back home, their language is changing and developing in new ways.
I wish I could find the pages for you all right now, but there is a Wikipedia entry (I’m almost sure) about the Spanish speakers on this small island in the southern states who were sent from Spain 200 years or so ago. They retain the classic Spanish, sometimes referred to as “The Queen’s Spanish” that is completely extinct in Spain today. Only the elders in this community speak the language, but these people are very interesting to study for anybody interested in linguistics and the evolution of language.
The last note I’d like to make is in regards to the simultaneous evolution of a language in its home country and in a new land. There were several words created by Italian immigrants here in the US that take English words and “Italianize” them. No doubt, this took place in South America, as well. Interestingly, though, because Spanish is much closer to Italian than English, Italian verbs and nouns crept into some South American Spanish, even when the speakers aren’t of Italian descent.
Recalling this, I could be off… It sounded similar to “facina”, but I am not positive? IIRC, the context surrounding it had the character in the film using it as an apparent ward in exclamation against the evil eye from some woman?
Anybody know of any utterances against hexes in Italian?
Could it have been sfaccimma? It’s a Neapolitan word (pronounced sfah-CHEEM-uh) that literally translates to “semen,” but functions as more than just a word for sperm.
It’s typically used in a derogatory manner, although we sometimes say it sarcastically towards somebody when they’re exhibiting intelligence and cleverness. In fact, the Neapolitans themselves are sometimes derogatorily referred to by the rest of Italy as “La Sfaccimma della Gente,” or “The Semen (Shit) of the People.” Lovely, hm?
Of course, shouting sfaccimma is just like a loud curse, such as motherfucker, in English.
They use “moolignan” in the movie “Do the Right Thing”, but they spelled it “moulan yan.”
Mookie: Dago, wop, guinea, garlic-breath, pizza-slingin’, spaghetti-bendin’, Vic Damone, Perry Como, Luciano Pavarotti, Sole Mio, nonsingin’ motherfucker.
Pino: You gold-teeth-gold-chain-wearin’, fried-chicken-and-biscuit-eatin’, monkey, ape, baboon, big thigh, fast-runnin’, high-jumpin’, spear-chuckin’, 360-degree-basketball-dunkin’ titsun spade Moulan Yan. Take your fuckin’ pizza-pizza and go the fuck back to Africa.
Ice Cube used Pino’s words in his song “Turn off the radio” on his 1990 album AmeriKKK’s Most Wanted. See: - YouTube
HEY CAN YOU PLEASE watch the Scene of the MARIO test right before he explains it the broads walk down the street… CAN YOU PLEASE LISTEN TO WHAT THEY GUYS ARE SHOUTING TO THE BROADS AND TELL US WHAT THEY ARE SAYING BOTH IN ITALIAN LIKE TRANSCRIBE THAT THEN TRANSLATE IT INTO ENGLISH PLEASEEEE … been looking everywhere can’t find???
Hey pacarella or anyone if you could that post was for you … in bronx tale before mario test broads walk on sidewalk the guys shouting in italian can u translate in english and italian PLEASEEEEE @pascarella
Fun Fact: Not to hijack this very interesting thread about Italian languages/dialects, but the movie A Bronx Tale was filmed in Queens. They keep referring to (I believe) 225th Street in the Bronx, but they filmed it on 30th Avenue in Astoria/Long Island City, Queens. And the school, on 30th Ave and 48th St, is William Cullen Bryant HS, my alma mater.
