I think the issue might be that stress does not play the same role in Italian (or Japanese or Bengali, for example) as it does in English. In English, primary syllable stress is an important factor in judging the shape and meaning of a word. In fact, in many words, all the vowels except the one in the primary stress syllable are reduced to the unstressed central vowel. We are so used to the presence of primary syllable stress that we “hear” it in every words, even if it isn’t there.
My theory is that in their native languages, the words “oregano,” “Caribbean,” and “Hiroshima,” for example, don’t carry primary syllable stress in quite the same way as they do in standard American and British English. But we’re so used to it that we want to put it somewhere; we just don’t always put it in the same place. So some of us hear “o-REG-a-no” and some of us hear “o-re-GA-no,” but neither one is exactly correct so far as the true Italian pronunciation is concerned.
That’s not true – Italian is a language that has the same type of syllable stress as English or the other Romance languages. (I don’t know how to explain it linguistically.) Certain syllables are heavily stressed and others are lightly stressed. Sometimes you will see an accent mark to show stress (papa = pa’pa, light stress on first syllable; papà = paPA, heavy stress on second syllable). The words oregano,Stefania,pericolo,simpatico,magnetico, etc. all have the same syllabic stress pattern: light-STRONG-light-light.
My father is from the Italian region of Friuli and is an Italian language professor, and I just called him and confirmed – most Italians say “oh-REH-gah-no,” and some even say “oh-RI-gah-no,” but there is no regional accent or dialect that says “oh-reh-GAH-no.”
Yes, the stress in Italian words is pretty much set and is never changed. There are no regional differences in stress - pronunciation, maybe, but not stress.
Just wanted to point out that French is an unstressed language. No individual words have stress. Each syllable is pronounced the same. Many people mistakenly think the last syllable of every word is stressed in French and they are not. The only syllable that is stressed is the very last one in the sentence, regardless of the word, and the stress is only apparent when one speaks at a normal pace. If you speak that same word individually, there is no stress at all.
I was getting ready to contradict you regarding the opening line of your post, but you recovered nicely. There is stress apparent in spoken French, but stress is an attribute of an utterance/phrase/sentence rather than an attribute of a word.
Clairobscur or Zazie or another Francophone Doper may jump in and give more detail.
Oh Ciao!!Gallows Fodder ! I lived in Friuli for many years and that is where I got my language experience from. I don’t run across many people from that region. Most people are from Roma or Napoli but…to answer the original question, to the best of my working knowledge fo the language, the "e"s on the end are pronounced but it is a softer sound than the hard “E” sound we are familiar with in English. More like the the e in met. Also, that gli isn’t exactly like a l-yi either…more like trying to put your tongue on the top of your mouth and say yi…hard to explain without you getting the audio…but the sounds are just different than English.
Italian is a beautiful language and I love speaking. It feels good in your mouth!!!
American often spell it wrong ( it just kills me to see it spelled incorrectly at a pizzeria). But actually, I don’t think the parmi-ZHAN version is much different ( to English speaking ears, anyway) from my dialect-speaking relatives’ “par- mi-zji-AN” .Their dialect apparently drops a lot of the final vowels.
I’m going to assume you’re Aussie from the homepage you’ve listed (if you aren’t then my apologies to Aussies)
Well, we could get into the way Aussies hack the Spanish language but i won’t (and i’ve heard it from tourists here). Yanks pronounce those two words fine, and probably a lot closer to their root languages than other native english speakers tend to.
In Spanish, “oregano” is pronounced o-REH-gah-no, very close to the “American” pronunciation.
Caribbean comes from “Carib, Caribe” the name of the Indian tribe they came across in the area. The Latin is “Caribbeanus”. It’s pronounced here as “cah-RIH-bee-an” so tell me how that’s any more wrong than how a brit or an aussie would say it?
One shouldn’t harp on pronunciations of words when they themselves are saying it wrong according to speakers of other languages.
Parmesan an incorrect spelling, jjimm? I would say it’s the English (and also the French) word for “parmigiano”. But it’s no more incorrect than are “Rome”, “Florence”, “Venice”, and “Italy”.
My US-English dictionary (a “Webster’s”, but that name is very non-specific) denotes “Parmesan” as being something from Parma, including the cheese (from 1510-1520, via Old French), and “parmigiana” (or “parmigiano”, m.) as being a recipe using Parmesan cheese.
My experience is that US grocery stores will almost always have the cheese labeled as “Parmesan”. The biggest US supplier, Kraft, calls it “Parmesan”. However, most Americans will pronounce this word “parmi-ZHAAN”, as you correctly point out.
Looking at a US-published cookbook (“The New Basics Cookbook”, 1989), I can find a recipe for “veal parmigiana”, but the cheese used is listed as “Parmesan”. This is typical IMHO, and supports the dictionary usage.
So, how is it that millions of Americans will see the word “Parmesan” and come up with a “ZH” sound, when the letter “s” is never pronounced that way in English or Italian?
My WAG is that it comes from the New York Italian-American dialect, (as found in the HBO series “The Sopranos”), in which the terminal syllable is dropped, often accompanied by a consonant change. Thus, the Italian words mozzarella, manicotti, and parmigiano become moozadell’, manigott’, and parmigian’. So, a (non-Italian) American 100 years ago might have heard the word parmigian’ (pronounced parmi-ZHAN) coming from Italian immigrants, while also seeing the word “Parmesan” written in English recipes. The assumption would have been that the former is the pronunciation of the latter.
These days, the use of “parmigiano” for a cheese is limited by trademark to the “Parmigiano Reggiano” cheeses from Parma and Reggio Emilia, whereas a “Parmesan” can be from anywhere.
The message board links here and here support the idea that dropping the final syllable is a Sicilian / Neapolitan / Calabrese regionalism. Since these regions were strongly represented in the first waves of Italian immigration to the New York area, the Northeastern US Italian-Americans picked up the whole “manigott” meme.
That’s where you’re wrong. Tone can mean something in terms of sound or color, but it can also mean “style of writing” or even “mood.” Look in the dictionary if you don’t believe me.
And not to be a junior mod or anything, but I will second the notion that you should probably tone [there it is again! that durn word] it down a bit, especially in the General Questions forum of this message board.
Ex Italian res confirming Antonius (you must be Roman) - Neapolitains (and some others) drop the last syllable on many words - regional accent variations are pretty substantial in Italy.
eg amrri - gaa where Florentines would say americani,
The Florentine ‘dgia’ is also often replaced by ‘zha’ eg parmi - zhaa
I also suspect that Napoli may be the source of the long ‘a’ (as in father = pasta) that American English tends to use in ‘foreign’ words.
AwSnappity: Pfft, by tone, I meant tone of voice, which is what everton was referring to. If he chooses to read something into what I wrote instead of taking it in the lighthearted manner I meant, that’s his problem. Why be so uptight? If he didn’t like what I said, he should say so, not “warn” me about how other people won’t like it.
It’s just a small thing, Vision4BG, don’t worry too much about it. I’m quite sure everton took no personal offence at what you said.
But often people will take offense at things like that. That’s what everton was trying to warn you about. It’s just something to keep in mind when posting here.
